Understanding the role of the LADO

00:00:15:01 - 00:00:40:20

Steve Macabee - Host

Right. Hello, and welcome back to the PPod, the Partnership podcast from the Somerset Safeguarding Children Partnership. Now, as you know, as part of these podcasts, we'd like to explore the various facets of Safeguarding Encounter. And nationally and and I'm really pleased today to be joined with a real expert in his field today. And that is the local authority designated officer or Lado.

00:00:40:20 - 00:00:46:13

Steve Macabee - Host

And here I have one of the leaders with me today. Anthony Goble. So, Anthony, thank you so much for joining us.

00:00:46:14 - 00:00:47:22

Anthony Goble - LADO

Hello, Steve. Thanks for having.

00:00:47:22 - 00:01:00:14

Steve Macabee - Host

Me. So it's it's a real pleasure. And I know we've we've spoken over many years and sort of done piece of work together. So it is great to finally get you in the studio and and gain your kind of knowledge like around this quite specific kind of role, isn't it?

00:01:00:16 - 00:01:01:17

Anthony Goble - LADO

Very specialized.

00:01:01:18 - 00:01:15:12

Steve Macabee - Host

So. So let's, let's get stuck into it then, if we can. And for anybody who's not familiar with the role of the lado or local authority designated officer. Can you just kind of explain what that role is and of the roles responsibilities of it?

00:01:15:15 - 00:01:41:04

Anthony Goble - LADO

So back in 2002, two children, ten year olds, Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman, living in a village in Cambridgeshire. One Saturday went round to see in the village where they lived. The teaching assistant lady called MAXINE Carr and she wasn't there. The door was opened to them by a man called Ian Huntley and he murdered the two girls.

00:01:41:06 - 00:01:57:14

Anthony Goble - LADO

What came from that was a huge change in child protection legislation and the child protection system. I think from that tragedy recognize the importance of seeing that abuse and harm of children can be perpetrated beyond the family.

00:01:57:14 - 00:02:04:02

Steve Macabee - Host

So this was known at the time as the so emerged as well. And I think quite a famous kind of case because of the the changes that it led to.

00:02:04:03 - 00:02:28:10

Anthony Goble - LADO

That's right. Ian Huntley being a caretaker at the local secondary school and as I said, MAXINE Carr was a teaching assistant. And what the public inquiry recommended in terms of legislative changes also included the need for there to be a procedure that dealt with people who work with children and young people who have an inappropriate and caused harm.

00:02:28:14 - 00:02:56:12

Anthony Goble - LADO

And when we talk about people who work with children and young people, it's what we call what we call the wider children's workforce. So we're talking people who work in a paid role. Social workers, teachers, police and all the way through on the continuum to people who give of their own time to volunteer for organizations, run activities and events for children and young people such as sports scouts, that sort of thing.

00:02:56:13 - 00:03:03:03

Steve Macabee - Host

So it's it's quite a specific role that you that you have been in, in this role in Somerset. How long?

00:03:03:05 - 00:03:14:20

Anthony Goble - LADO

Eight years, Yes. I joined in 2015 alongside the letter assistant Julian Flack. He joined at the same time and we've subsequently been joined by Stacey Davis.

00:03:14:20 - 00:03:26:19

Steve Macabee - Host

Yeah, which is brilliant, having two ladies for the first time. Not not that there was nothing wrong with just having you, Anthony, but I know that you've been absolutely rushed off your feet capacity wise for a number of years now.

00:03:26:21 - 00:04:00:09

Anthony Goble - LADO

Yeah, it has been busy because primarily because of organizations and agencies understanding their responsibility to report allegations against the staff of volunteers, but also have been promoting the managing allegations procedure to a wider audience. So we're well known now and organizations and agencies understand their responsibilities. The role of the letter, which is the statutory role, is there to be the first point of contact when there are allegations against people who work with children and young people?

00:04:00:09 - 00:04:27:16

Anthony Goble - LADO

We receive those notifications, as we call them, in Somerset. We assess, we determine how much of a risk the adult of concern presents. We give advice to employers about how to manage that risk, and we work closely with police and children, social care colleagues to ensure that if their thresholds are met, there may be a role for those agencies.

00:04:27:17 - 00:04:57:04

Steve Macabee - Host

So it's quite a specialist role there, isn't it, and and quite a niche role in terms of the work you do. But so so sort of in a nutshell, it's about if somebody has concerns, have they gone saw it has safeguarding concerns about an adult working around children. Actually you're the kind of facility then in conjunction obviously with other partners like the police like you mentioned to really kind of explore that and look at the safeguarding around that child and potential risk of that adult.

00:04:57:05 - 00:05:28:01

Anthony Goble - LADO

That's right. The statutory guidance working together has four criteria to determine if the inappropriate behavior of that person who works for children and young people has been met. And those criteria are that the inappropriate behavior has harmed or may have harmed the young person that it may be a criminal offense against or related to the young person. The third criteria is that the person poses a risk of harm to the young person.

00:05:28:01 - 00:05:48:12

Anthony Goble - LADO

And the fourth criteria looks at someone who may be unsuitable to work with children. So that fourth criteria is, as has been introduced in recognition of professionals outside of their work setting, behaving an appropriately and there may be a transferable risk back into their day job because.

00:05:48:12 - 00:05:51:15

Steve Macabee - Host

That came in in or was it 2020 I believe.

00:05:51:15 - 00:05:54:09

Anthony Goble - LADO

Yeah, just before COVID, before the pandemic.

00:05:54:14 - 00:06:13:16

Steve Macabee - Host

So did did you find because obviously that that fourth category is quite a bit broader and in some respects and say indicates they may pose a risk of harm says a couple of kind of broader aspects within that. Did you find from that point that that in terms of notifications to yourself, those really escalated a result of that or do you not see much of an impact from it?

00:06:13:17 - 00:06:44:03

Anthony Goble - LADO

It's about promoting the fact that that fourth criteria had been introduced, but as the managing allegations procedure, what those four criteria are promoted not just here in Somerset but around the country where local authority designated officers work for local authorities. Yeah, we're beginning to see a much greater awareness of people's behavior, I inappropriate behavior and how that might impact on the children and young people that they come across in their professional role.

00:06:44:03 - 00:07:16:22

Steve Macabee - Host

And we'll talk probably on that, I'm sure, as we go through this about sort of that kind of pragmatic approach and looking at context and things. But I think that that fourth category, let's say that that transferable risk is quite a sensible way forward, like, say, because there are times where somebody may not be directly posing a risk of harm directly to a child, but actually that might be something you think, you know, this behavior over here, maybe outside of the workplace, maybe not even related to children, actually, that could draw into a real question about their suitability to be around children.

00:07:16:24 - 00:07:52:04

Anthony Goble - LADO

Absolutely. Because when we're looking at inappropriate behavior, I think that it's far greater than the actions of the individual or the inactions of the individual where they may have been negligent. We're also looking at individuals, values, attitudes and beliefs. So if an individual spends their spare time supporting band organizations who are out there to radicalize young people, that would be a concern if they are working and their day job with children and young people.

00:07:52:06 - 00:08:00:10

Steve Macabee - Host

So what is what are the sort of typical things that you see coming into you on a on a kind of daily basis? I know I'm presuming there is on an average day within your.

00:08:00:10 - 00:08:03:03

Anthony Goble - LADO

Role, never an average day or lots of variety.

00:08:03:07 - 00:08:06:14

Steve Macabee - Host

So what are the kind of things that you see coming your way?

00:08:06:15 - 00:08:35:16

Anthony Goble - LADO

So in no particular order, we see incidences where professional have breached what we call personal professional boundaries, right? Where perhaps they've made contact with the young person outside of normal working hours. There may be sinister motives to that. They may not be. If there's not sinister motives, then certainly they've acted outside the expectations of their or their employers code of conduct.

00:08:35:21 - 00:09:12:06

Anthony Goble - LADO

We see cases coming through around inappropriate physical contact. So the use of force and needing to determine whether the force use was necessary, was it reasonable, was a proportionate where risks of risk managing professionals who are subject to criminal investigations. So where police colleagues notify us of investigations into criminal offenses and have identified that the suspect works with children and young people, we deal with sexual assaults, we deal with grooming type behavior.

00:09:12:07 - 00:09:37:15

Anthony Goble - LADO

Right. And we're dealing with trauma based allegations that have been triggered for children looked after. So if the behavior of a residential care worker or foster carer has been inappropriate and triggered trauma for that young person, there may be a need to go through a process to identify what that's about and how to ensure it doesn't happen again.

00:09:37:17 - 00:09:49:01

Steve Macabee - Host

Are there agencies that you have sort of more contact with or less contact with? And you mentioned their foster carers and residential children's homes and the police there. Obviously if there's been criminal offenses towards you, Well it's.

00:09:49:01 - 00:10:37:17

Anthony Goble - LADO

Probably two answers to that. There's the agencies and organizations and notifications for you. And here in Somerset, because of the high number of schools that we have, we probably get 40% of our notifications coming from schools. That's academies and independent schools as well as maintain schools. We've got a lot of residential children's homes in Somerset, so that takes up probably a third of the notifications coming through and then we're talking about foster carers and other organizations, community voluntary sector organizations, youth groups and scouts and all the different activities, extracurricular activities that young people get involved with.

00:10:37:17 - 00:10:54:12

Steve Macabee - Host

Yeah, I was just thinking about we were talking just before we started recording this about the Lucy Levy inquiry and obviously the, the, the death and the harm that she caused within the health system is that's the sort of thing that you'd, you'd be involved in as well, potentially.

00:10:54:12 - 00:11:37:14

Anthony Goble - LADO

Very much so. You know, the definition of someone who works with children and young people, as I said in my introduction, is as broad in its definition. So certainly Lucy Levy was a pediatric nurse and she was responsible on her shifts on the neonatal unit for some very vulnerable babies and concerns were raised by colleagues of Lucy Levy, including pediatricians that would normally you'd expect that to be reported to the latter, who would then liaise with the police and children's social care and the acute trust in terms of determining the processes to follow, to investigate that.

00:11:37:16 - 00:11:53:11

Steve Macabee - Host

I think it's important to clear up because I think sometimes people may see you or your role might say to do with schools or to do with tombstones, but actually this is broad, isn't it? As broad as it is wide. And like saying any agency that has any contact with children, young people at all.

00:11:53:15 - 00:12:13:24

Anthony Goble - LADO

Yes. And when you think we've got 110,000 children, young people in Somerset who 24 seven are involved and living their lives, and hopefully it's a happy and safe life, they are going to come across people outside the family setting who might be intent on causing them harm.

00:12:14:05 - 00:12:23:16

Steve Macabee - Host

And you mentioned obviously within the letter service, this is yourself, the state's David Silva, the other Shadow, and Julian Flack, who's the data assistance, a team of three of you.

00:12:23:17 - 00:13:11:12

Anthony Goble - LADO

These three of us as interests were an interesting mix, but we blend well and harmonize well. I come from a human resources background, so I'm sort of steeped and employment processes, employment policies, recruitment and retention, codes of conduct, you know, anything around employment in employment law. And of course, we're dealing with employers every day. Stacey Comes is an experienced social worker, so she brings a really helpful background and experience and perspective about the social care system and children and young people, how they develop, how we support nurture.

00:13:11:14 - 00:13:23:13

Anthony Goble - LADO

And Julian, who joined when I arrived, has over the last eight years developed outstandingly into an integral part of the team. We couldn't do it without them.

00:13:23:15 - 00:13:31:23

Steve Macabee - Host

And what sort of volume are we looking at here in terms of number of notifications? What what are we talking about a couple of year or something? Or or more than that.

00:13:31:24 - 00:14:01:17

Anthony Goble - LADO

We're probably getting receiving each year 6 to 700 notifications and not all of those. The most serious and fact, probably a third of those 6 to 700 we assess as not needing our involvement. Well, now that's not to say it's not a serious issue, but it's not a concern that there needs to be a process followed to investigate.

00:14:01:19 - 00:14:05:13

Anthony Goble - LADO

It just means it doesn't get picked up under the managing allegations procedure.

00:14:05:15 - 00:14:11:01

Steve Macabee - Host

So just to pick that apart is 6 to 700. So so on average, a2a day.

00:14:11:07 - 00:14:14:15

Anthony Goble - LADO

Your maths is better than mine. Well, thank you. Very quickly I said.

00:14:14:16 - 00:14:27:08

Steve Macabee - Host

Roughly of catch up with one but so that's a big number. Isn't there a sort of three of you within the team that that's a lot to deal with and is that something you've seen increase over time in terms of notifications?

00:14:27:08 - 00:14:58:23

Anthony Goble - LADO

It has increased. It's increased primarily because we're promoting the managing allegation procedure with I organizations and agencies. That includes, of course, the training that you undertake with the multi-agency Somerset Safeguarding Children Partnership and as people who've got a safeguarding responsibility as part of their remit, understand that part of that responsibility is to report individuals who work with children and young people.

00:14:58:23 - 00:15:02:01

Anthony Goble - LADO

Yeah, we're seeing we're seeing a year on year increase.

00:15:02:03 - 00:15:13:05

Steve Macabee - Host

And you said that. So out of out of if we if we just take 700 as a number then so so out of those 700. So how many do you say is it would roughly be sort of picked up by yourselves.

00:15:13:05 - 00:15:24:02

Anthony Goble - LADO

We would probably run with two thirds of those. Okay. And a third we would consider as not meeting the full criteria. I mentioned earlier.

00:15:24:06 - 00:15:32:11

Steve Macabee - Host

So it's one with those that don't meet your criteria. What are the sort of things that you see coming up within those?

00:15:32:13 - 00:16:03:00

Anthony Goble - LADO

What I suppose is described as low level concerns, right? I mentioned earlier about blurring professional, personal professional boundaries. I mentioned conduct. So most organizations will have a code of conduct which is around the expectations of what's acceptable professional behavior with the young person and what's not. So we will look at cases that are coming through of that ilk.

00:16:03:00 - 00:16:28:00

Anthony Goble - LADO

And yes, that is concerning behavior. Yes, they appear to have breached their own organization's policy and procedure. The IG, the code of conduct. But we've assessed that the incident, particularly if it's a one off, doesn't necessarily indicate that that person poses a risk of harm to young people. But nonetheless, you know, they have to be held to account.

00:16:28:00 - 00:16:33:13

Anthony Goble - LADO

So there are other processes that can be followed without triggering the managing allegations procedure.

00:16:33:14 - 00:16:53:02

Steve Macabee - Host

Yeah, and I think that that's important. One of the I joined some of your training yesterday. We talk about low level concerns in a bit, if that's okay. But and it was very much about to sort of understanding okay. Yes, some things are completely appropriate to notify yourselves over and again when we're looking at safeguarding, it's about that risk to that child.

00:16:53:04 - 00:17:12:03

Steve Macabee - Host

And so there's quite a broad spectrum within that of of behaviors which like, say, may not be appropriate behaviors around young people. They might be a breach of code of conduct, professional boundaries, but actually wouldn't meet that sort of criteria of harm. I guess that to follow that sort of procedure through with yourselves.

00:17:12:03 - 00:17:38:20

Anthony Goble - LADO

Absolutely, because we spend a lot of our time assessing notifications that come through and in effect, gatekeeping what was going to be picked up under the managing allegations procedure, because there's a recognition that people who work with children and young people are human beings. And like all of us, we make mistakes. And that includes accidents that happen that sometimes even cause harm.

00:17:38:22 - 00:18:10:20

Anthony Goble - LADO

Sometimes we can be reckless in our behavior at work. Sometimes it's deliberate intent and the motivation to harm. So a lot of gatekeeping around what are we dealing with here? What what the actions or inactions of of individual professional strike volunteer, where does it set you know, have they simply made a mistake? Is it accidental or are we seeing something more motivated by deliberate intent to harm?

00:18:11:00 - 00:18:39:10

Anthony Goble - LADO

HM And research tells us, particularly when we look at cases that generally make the headlines, which is around sexual harm of children and young people, we have to determine whether we might be seeing an emerging pattern of concerning behavior. So that's where from research, we know that people who set out to deliberately sexually harm children and young people, they develop an interest in children and young people.

00:18:39:10 - 00:19:22:10

Anthony Goble - LADO

And it may be several years before they actually perpetrate the harm on that journey. They will try to push boundaries. And it's those that get reported to us that we will keep on our database as a cross-reference for future notifications on that individual because research tells us if someone could just see over that journey of that individual's career, those low level incidences that at the time may not have needed reporting to the lottery service, possibly didn't even need to be dealt with formally by the employer at the time.

00:19:22:12 - 00:19:52:02

Anthony Goble - LADO

They may have been given us a quiet word, but when they are captured and you look at the accumulated effect, it supports the research that shows that could be someone on a journey to with an outcome that they are going to harm a young person. So it's a collection of appropriate data. Yeah. To see about that emerging patent to identify it.

00:19:52:03 - 00:20:16:23

Steve Macabee - Host

Yeah, is interesting. And I think there's a risk sometimes with emerging patterns where and I'm sure you see this kind of normalization of behaviors and it's up to normal. I was thinking as you were talking just then, and it is quite an extreme example in a way, but thinking about Jimmy Savile, where actually the behaviors that he very, very publicly exhibited were really, really concerning.

00:20:16:23 - 00:20:40:04

Steve Macabee - Host

But over a long period of time, there was very much this kind of normalization of this behavior. I remember watching a documentary by Louis Theroux where he went back and kind of reviewed the the documentary he did with Jimmy Saville at the time and saying actually, when he looked back on it now, it was so normalized, the behavior that he was doing, even in the interviewing that he was kind of pulled into.

00:20:40:04 - 00:20:50:06

Steve Macabee - Host

It's just Jimmy is just what he does. It's just whereas actually if you if you look at what he's doing now in retrospect, which is always, you know, a luxury in a way, but.

00:20:50:08 - 00:20:50:19

Anthony Goble - LADO

Actually.

00:20:50:19 - 00:21:05:13

Steve Macabee - Host

What he was saying was very, very blatant sometimes. But the normalization of that and I think if we kind of boil that down to the much smaller level, when we look at agencies where people may have known each other for many years or that that kind of normalizing is a real risk, is that.

00:21:05:15 - 00:21:44:02

Anthony Goble - LADO

When we're looking particularly at sexual harm, it's a recognized pattern of people to groom those that are there to protect them. So that will generally start with the co workers and managers where they work very hard to be charming, to be loyal, to be committed to their work and to build trust that that's the key. If they can build trust with their peers, that opens up opportunity to target victims.

00:21:44:03 - 00:22:26:01

Anthony Goble - LADO

And and in the cases like Jimmy Savile, he manipulated the system because he had status he was with that status was the popularity that gave him a lot of power, which he manipulated. And of course, he as a celebrity, he was earning the BBC a lot of money. That makes it very difficult for any organization in the face of that popularity, where he was probably at the time deemed a national treasure, makes it very difficult to try and buck the trend and to challenge inappropriate behavior.

00:22:26:01 - 00:22:41:13

Anthony Goble - LADO

So, yes, that normalization isn't something that just happens. They work hard. Perpetrators of sexual harm will work hard to have people trust. And that comes from that normalized behavior.

00:22:41:15 - 00:23:05:07

Steve Macabee - Host

We talk about grooming of children often, don't we? But like I say, grooming of adults of those protective factors around these children is absolutely key to understand as well. And and and I think sometimes we have to be honest, we sometimes have these images of people who intentionally seek to abuse children and what they look like. We've got that's an unconscious bias of we would instinctively feel very uncomfortable around them.

00:23:05:07 - 00:23:26:20

Steve Macabee - Host

We would instinctively know we know they would be kind of slimy, uncomfortable, awkward people, which would got our kind of spider senses tingling going, No, this isn't this person isn't right here. But actually what we see a lot of what you just mentioned are people who would be that very reliable person that go to person. The person said, oh, they're great.

00:23:26:20 - 00:23:29:23

Steve Macabee - Host

They always kind of, you know, always stepping in at the last minute to help out.

00:23:29:23 - 00:24:13:18

Anthony Goble - LADO

Yes. The research on people who'd been working in positions of trust across the whole of society. Yes, statistically, predominantly men, but a not an insignificant number of women. There's no right divide. These are people from faith backgrounds, no faith backgrounds. They can be young. They can be old. You know, if we if we think of the Jamie Bolger's of this world who is where he was murdered by two young people, we think Vanessa George, who worked at Little Ted's Nursery in Plymouth, who was part of a pedophile ring.

00:24:13:20 - 00:24:29:18

Anthony Goble - LADO

We've got Dr. Eyes, we've got police officers. We've got all sorts of different people from society. There's no one fit for someone who's got deliberate intent to go out and harm.

00:24:29:18 - 00:24:45:00

Steve Macabee - Host

What happens and what's the process, I think, for yourselves is, I guess, two typical routes in yourself. One through the police and potentially one from an employer or a member of the public through anybody else. Can you sort of talk us through what happens?

00:24:45:05 - 00:25:13:17

Anthony Goble - LADO

Sure. The expectation in most of the notifications will come from organizations, sometimes in the public, and we're more than happy to accept notifications wherever they come from. But of course, the public aren't as well versed. And the role of the letter or the managing allegations procedure. So generally we tried to promote it was designated safeguarding leads and all organizations and agencies.

00:25:13:19 - 00:25:43:01

Anthony Goble - LADO

The expectation is if they feel that any of the four criteria I mentioned earlier are met only has to be one doesn't have to be all for the expectation agencies is within one working day. They need to submit what we call an allegations reporting form which and some are set as as how you get in contact with the letters service that's available on the Somerset Safeguarding Children Partnership website.

00:25:43:03 - 00:25:57:18

Anthony Goble - LADO

And they email that form through to Somerset Direct that then gets logged and we assess and make contact with the notifier, usually within one working day.

00:25:57:20 - 00:26:08:14

Steve Macabee - Host

And I guess from that point it then kind of branch out depending on the response, depending on the situation. But I would guess probably a bit of fact finding, maybe initially kind of liaising with police and others.

00:26:08:14 - 00:26:54:02

Anthony Goble - LADO

Absolutely. We save employers a lot of time because we take on the responsible attorney to liaise with the police and children social care. The exception being is if a child or young person is as a risk, imminent risk. Right, then we would expect a phone call straight through to the police. But by and large, yeah, we will liaise with the police, colleagues and children social care in order for them to determine from the information and the allegations reporting form this, if there's thresholds met to become involved and we work collaboratively really and have a really positive working relationship on a daily basis and work together in the best interests of the child and young person,

00:26:54:04 - 00:27:17:07

Anthony Goble - LADO

primarily employers will always be expected to follow their own internal process, but we will advise them at what point they can do that. The last thing we want to do, if it's particularly serious matters, jeopardize child protection inquiries by children, social care and or criminal investigations by the police.

00:27:17:09 - 00:27:22:11

Steve Macabee - Host

There's a there's a lot of decision making to make in a very short space of time, isn't it? And the very.

00:27:22:11 - 00:27:25:23

Anthony Goble - LADO

Limited information and. Yeah, yes, absolutely it is.

00:27:26:00 - 00:27:42:11

Steve Macabee - Host

So with them, I'm just thinking, how do you prioritize that? You know, if we're looking at 6 to 700 a year, that's a large volume coming into you. And within that decision making process that you've got to make quite quickly, you know, how do you kind of prioritize that in terms of what you do? Well, we.

00:27:42:11 - 00:28:13:12

Anthony Goble - LADO

Work really to the statutory agencies thresholds, so we're working to significant harm, which if children, young people have got an acute need and that acute need is they need to be kept safe because they are experiencing or maybe likely to experience significant harm. We know immediately that that threshold has been met and we know immediately that there's a role for our colleagues in children's social care.

00:28:13:14 - 00:28:49:05

Anthony Goble - LADO

So we'll liaise with the front door, the first response team, and they will pick up the case and proceed to convene a child protection strategy discussion if necessary. And similarly, we simultaneously liaise with our police colleagues because we've got enough depth and breadth of experience to determine if potentially a criminal and criminal offense has been committed. And we want the police to very much pick it up and run with it as quickly as possible.

00:28:49:07 - 00:29:07:01

Steve Macabee - Host

You mentioned the allegation of reporting for murder. Who? I know because we can't resist acronyms on a you refer a lot to as the off on that. So so that that's kind of one of the main kind of routes into yourselves that allegation reporting form. What are the some of the things that you look for when you when you receive that?

00:29:07:01 - 00:29:14:06

Steve Macabee - Host

And is there anything that's particularly helpful or unhelpful, that sort including that they said quite often there's not a lot of context may be.

00:29:14:07 - 00:29:45:21

Anthony Goble - LADO

Yes, we we have a mantra in our service context as everything and a context can explain whether we're talking about something that may have been an accident one off, or that there's something more sinister. But what we're looking for is apart from the context, as we need to understand the organization's perspective of the incident, are they telling us that they have concerns?

00:29:45:23 - 00:30:11:19

Anthony Goble - LADO

What is the concern that they have? Are we talking about a flagrant breach of their policy or not? We would want to know information about their employee or volunteer, which is how long they've worked for the organization, because that would determine if they have gone through their induction and probation and receive the necessary training that they should have had.

00:30:11:21 - 00:30:50:08

Anthony Goble - LADO

Age plays a part in terms of we would expect people with more lived experience to perhaps have a better appreciation of what's expected. We will look for whether disability needs to be factored in and their ethnic background can play an important part. If we're dealing with, for instance, people who English is not their first language, it could be that the young person making the allegation has misheard, misinterpreted what's been said to them.

00:30:50:10 - 00:31:11:21

Anthony Goble - LADO

Then in terms of the child, we need to know what their particular needs are when very aware of the fact that research tells us that statistically children who are disabled are much higher and more likely to be at risk of harm.

00:31:12:00 - 00:31:33:19

Steve Macabee - Host

I joined your training yesterday and there's an example given there where just to give that example for a moment. So a report comes into you that a member of staff working in a school, for example, has grabbed a young person by the hood of their coat and yanked them backwards and they've caused marks and bruising on their neck.

00:31:33:21 - 00:32:14:03

Steve Macabee - Host

Now, that by itself, I think would people probably agree that's concerning and potentially when we look at that criteria of harm, has it has it caused harm to a child? Has it possibly committed a criminal offense? You could look at those quite young and say, yeah, actually there were marks that's child's neck and that she is completely. But then if you look in a context, the context could be that child was about to run straight out onto a dual carriageway in front of a lorry and that member of staff very quickly acted to grab that child as quick as they could and pull them back off the road, in which case the context you'd say

00:32:14:05 - 00:32:21:24

Steve Macabee - Host

perhaps that was completely appropriate behavior is that the kind of thing you see sometimes? So it's a lot out of context information.

00:32:22:00 - 00:33:00:09

Anthony Goble - LADO

Yeah, very much so, because the headline concerns, it's just taken as as that summary youngster's inappropriate. He physically grabbed and was physically hurt That headline would indicate something very concerning. The context, however, brings us back to what I was saying earlier, that as a service, we're empathetic to the fact that those that work with children and young people, by and large, decent, hard working, committed, passionate people about meeting the needs of young people.

00:33:00:09 - 00:33:33:01

Anthony Goble - LADO

So we would look at that context to determine whether or not this incident could be deemed to either be accidental or reckless or deliberate. Now, and the scenario you've just given, it's deliberate, but it was a deliberate act where the collateral damage, for want of a better term, was far outweighed by the actions of the professional to stop the young person being a fatality.

00:33:33:03 - 00:33:38:20

Steve Macabee - Host

And you could argue, I guess if they didn't take that action, then it would be a neglect of duty of care very much.

00:33:38:22 - 00:34:04:17

Anthony Goble - LADO

You know, neglect and duty of care as as a good example of of many of the notifications that we come through. And that's when context becomes important, because there can be circumstances on occasions where a professional clearly is in breach of their organization's policies and procedures. And then we might look at the context as to why they've done what they've done.

00:34:04:18 - 00:34:20:14

Steve Macabee - Host

There's a lot you're dealing with here on a daily basis. What would you say if you could really boil it down? What would you say are some of the really kind of key challenges for yourself and and the the service and, you know, some of what some of the big complexities of what you work with?

00:34:20:15 - 00:34:54:06

Anthony Goble - LADO

I think the child protection system as it exists in this country at the moment is very adversarial. It's very blame focused. I think regulatory bodies add to that like causes a lot of managers, head teachers to feel that they've got to immediately report to the Lado all instances of inappropriate behavior. And yet the statutory guidance is very clear about common use and common sense.

00:34:54:06 - 00:35:30:08

Anthony Goble - LADO

Right. You know, it's important to look at context. It's important to consider what was driving the actions of that person, that adult of concern before determining the need to send in a notification to the letter service. So we're very much working hard to promote and encourage and help people in decision making roles, to have the confidence to look at a concern and determine what's the most appropriate process to investigate and deal with that concern.

00:35:30:08 - 00:35:53:20

Anthony Goble - LADO

And it's not always the managing obligations, the siege or the role of, the ladder that necessarily has to be followed. It depends. And as we often say, it depends. There are different processes and procedures that most organizations have in place that can, in a very similar way, investigate and hold an individual to account, do.

00:35:53:20 - 00:36:18:17

Steve Macabee - Host

You find that actually some of the time people are contacting you because they want you to make that decision, because that sort of pressure of I've got to be fulfilling my responsibilities under Ofsted and everybody else, and I've got these real pressures too to make sure I'm taking all the boxes. I know this doesn't meet the criteria, but I actually, you know, I need Anthony to make this decision for me.

00:36:18:17 - 00:36:55:19

Anthony Goble - LADO

Very much so. But it's it's a scary old world out there, and we respect the fact that people who've got that responsibility as part of their role to report concerns are working in high pressured environments, lots of demands on them, and with very little time to do what they do. So we always empathetic and we have designed the notification form, the off the obligations reporting form in such a way that if they are not sure any of the four criteria are met, they can just simply ask for advice and guidance.

00:36:55:19 - 00:37:40:04

Anthony Goble - LADO

And we're always happy to provide advice and guidance and our time commitment to turn that round is within five working days. We work hard not to make decisions on behalf of others whose responsibility it is to that individual of concern. Primarily, that's an employer. If I use that generic term to cover organizations where there are volunteers like the scouts, it is ultimately for them to assess the concerned and collate all the information as part of an investigative process and to determine what level of sanction, if any, to put in place for that individual.

00:37:40:04 - 00:38:08:10

Anthony Goble - LADO

And sometimes there's no sanction. Sometimes it's a recognition, perhaps the degree the organization's culpable because they haven't adequately ensured that individuals familiar with its own policies and procedures might be that those policies and procedures are not particularly fit for purpose. Possibly the individual hasn't received the requisite training that they should have received. So the employer has taken into account all of those factors as well.

00:38:08:15 - 00:38:11:22

Anthony Goble - LADO

If they were a reasonable employer that values their staff.

00:38:11:22 - 00:38:33:18

Steve Macabee - Host

You mentioned deduction earlier on in this podcast, and I think that's always really key as well. I think there's a there's a real risk. Sometimes we just kind of assume that people know things particular like say, if they've if they're if they younger, if they've not worked in this field of work for very long, just kind of an assumption that people just kind of understand what professional boundaries are.

00:38:33:20 - 00:38:39:14

Steve Macabee - Host

Yeah, what does that look like? And from what you said in terms of sort of conduct, is that something you see coming in quite a lot?

00:38:39:15 - 00:39:19:02

Anthony Goble - LADO

Absolutely. It's it's naive of organizations to think that a professional who's an experienced professional coming from a different employer is going to immediately understand and the culture of their new employer to understand the expectations around what's considered appropriate behavior and what's not. So these, you know, these many complexities that need to be taken into account. You can't just pick a professional doing a similar role elsewhere or in another country and think that they will slot in immediately into our own organization.

00:39:19:02 - 00:39:37:18

Anthony Goble - LADO

So there's a huge responsibility on employers who value their staff, who value the service that they provide, children and young people being absolutely crystal clear with the new starters paying volunteers to communicate their standards.

00:39:37:21 - 00:39:59:22

Steve Macabee - Host

And I've got to say, how many people start a new job? And on day one, you get a stack of policies to read data. Is that a stack of e-learning to do on the back of that? And yeah, this stack of policies and a tick list is like, yep, I've read this policy and understand it. And I always say to people, you know, really try and avoid doing that.

00:39:59:22 - 00:40:18:11

Steve Macabee - Host

Obviously there are some policies people will have to read, but but you know, test that Do you actually understand because I can honestly say and on staff know lot I've started some jobs before where I've been given a pile of policies to rate and tick list. And by about the third one I'm glazing over and I'm skim reading it go, Yeah, that's fine to move on to the next one.

00:40:18:11 - 00:40:20:07

Steve Macabee - Host

And actually that doesn't benefit anybody to that.

00:40:20:11 - 00:40:22:11

Anthony Goble - LADO

Many of us have been in that situation.

00:40:22:11 - 00:40:31:11

Steve Macabee - Host

So it's funny, it's kind of seen as the norm is completely kind of accepted. That's the norm. That's what happens. But everybody knows it. It doesn't it's not effective is a while.

00:40:31:11 - 00:40:59:13

Anthony Goble - LADO

I think you're failing children and young people. You know, if you're if you're committed to offering a high quality service to the children, that your support and providing that service to, you owe it to them to make sure that the individuals who you're going to take on working in your organizations, sharing your values as an organization's, your beliefs, and the philosophy about how that service will be provided to children and young people.

00:40:59:19 - 00:41:20:20

Steve Macabee - Host

The same with same with policies. I think sometimes I think quite a lot of the time what I see are sort of model policies, template policies, which when you look at them, literally had the the name at the top changed and and you read down through them, sometimes you think this is not fit for purpose, this doesn't fit you as an organization.

00:41:20:20 - 00:41:32:10

Steve Macabee - Host

And that's always so crucial, isn't it? If you've got a policy there, it needs to be your policy. By all means, use templates. You know, templates are great starting points, but having was a starting point and not the not the finish point, I think.

00:41:32:13 - 00:42:05:01

Anthony Goble - LADO

I often find myself describing policies as really being the standards that are expected or the expected behavior of that organization and all the different components of what they are expecting that adult to do as part of their job and a job and fulfilling their job. The word policies is a is a is a word that doesn't for me define just how important that that communication of what those expected standards are.

00:42:05:01 - 00:42:16:11

Anthony Goble - LADO

And I suspect that there are many organizations, tions that are failing to make sure that their people understand what those expectations are and those standards.

00:42:16:13 - 00:42:36:24

Steve Macabee - Host

And we see that in whistleblowing policy sometimes either they're not there or if they are, they're people don't know about. The more importantly, they haven't got the the the trust I guess in them in the whistleblowing policy in particular on this topic, actually, if they raise something that's going to be kind of treated seriously and acted in line with with the policy.

00:42:36:24 - 00:43:13:14

Anthony Goble - LADO

Absolutely. It takes a brave person to blow the whistle. And the starting point is to have a policy that's well known amongst all everyone and to know who to go to and when to go to them, and to be reassured when you've taken a concern that you've been listened to and to be communicated with, they won't be privy to what on between management and the individual of concern that that's not their right to know that.

00:43:13:14 - 00:43:23:10

Anthony Goble - LADO

But they are expected to be told that action has been taken, that it's not been ignored, that their concern you've.

00:43:23:10 - 00:43:49:21

Steve Macabee - Host

Mentioned about some legislation around statutory guidance and that that's constantly changing is now evolving all the time here. You mentioned the children that right to the start of this, you mentioned working together. They've got children and I know how to what extent or, you know, how does that sort of affect your role? So I'm thinking about some things that have come in over the years, like within keeping children safe in education.

00:43:49:23 - 00:44:05:21

Steve Macabee - Host

We mentioned the requirement for agencies earlier to have a low level concerns policy in the policy that if you seen the kind of the contact that people have with you over that time sort of change or some of the demands on the service change because the changes in legislation or guidance.

00:44:05:21 - 00:44:35:24

Anthony Goble - LADO

I think the child protection system is evolving and quite rightly so. You know, as as we become more educated because of research that's undertaken on children and young people and how to help and to nurture them, Chorley thrive. We have learning from rapid reviews and how to make practitioners and their engagement with young people more enhanced and to understand responsibility.

00:44:35:24 - 00:45:04:05

Anthony Goble - LADO

Yes, So there are a whole myriad of different happenings in the big wide world that impact on children. Young people look quite rightly, the child protection system is, I keep referring to. It should be taking on board and refining and revising and introducing new legislation and with the statutory guidance to help practitioners on the ground implement that legislation.

00:45:04:07 - 00:45:26:16

Steve Macabee - Host

Do you find sometimes that may lead to uncertainty with people? I'm just thinking in terms of picking up from like with the level of concerns policy sort of initially picking up this role and setting about what does this mean, what does this look like, What do I do with this Now, again, that sort of uncertainty, then leaving, leading potentially to more demand on yourselves?

00:45:26:16 - 00:45:49:18

Anthony Goble - LADO

Well, I like to think I'm a reasonably educated, intelligent person. I the will to live after reading a few paragraphs of a piece of legislation, let alone understanding what it means and what it means for me in my professional role and how to implement. So so, you know, statutory guidance is there to to go some of the way to interpreting that legislation.

00:45:49:20 - 00:46:04:19

Anthony Goble - LADO

And then organizations create policies and procedures on the back of that so that by the time it gets to those of us at the coalface, you know, we have we have a reasonably hopefully good understanding of of of what's being expected.

00:46:04:20 - 00:46:46:16

Steve Macabee - Host

So it's taken us back a little bit to the start of this where we talked about the the Soham murders. So knowing that the murders of Kelly Wells and Jessica Chapman and the sort of the the inquiry that came out from that. And I think just going back to that for a moment, I know that sort of highlighted the policies and procedures are a really important they're great, but what underpins that and is more important potentially is that safe culture within agencies and that being the real key around safeguarding children and know that's something that you often, often talked about, What would you say were kind of some of these elements of having a safe

00:46:46:16 - 00:46:52:07

Steve Macabee - Host

culture? And also how would you kind of recommend around developing a safe culture within agencies? What does that look like?

00:46:52:08 - 00:47:22:04

Anthony Goble - LADO

What's interesting, the public inquiry following the deaths of Jessica and Holly. This is Michael Bouchard. Introduce the need for in schools because that's where Ian Hunter, he was working as a caretaker in a secondary school. And MAXINE Carr was was a teaching assistant in a primary school. It was about the expectations of organizations around vetting, checking for recruitment purposes.

00:47:22:04 - 00:47:51:11

Anthony Goble - LADO

There was a lot of criticism in that public inquiry about how Ian Huntley had been recruited and the references or lack of references or the vague ness of the references that he received. It also saw a huge change in how we interpret data protection because Ian Huntley had no less than a dozen very serious crimes that he'd been investigated for that he didn't get convicted.

00:47:51:13 - 00:48:28:12

Anthony Goble - LADO

And the fourth area he had previously lived in, which I think it was Humberside, had an had incorrectly misinterpreted the data protection and after a period of time had got rid of crucial information of that that would have identified a worrying pattern of behavior. I mean, these are these are serious offenses, raping girlfriends, that sort of thing. And that information never got passed through to the force area in Cambridgeshire, which is where Soham Village is located.

00:48:28:14 - 00:49:33:19

Anthony Goble - LADO

So there's been a huge move towards helping organizations understand their responsibilities to employ people and put them through robust vetting and checking processes. Hence what was CRB checks Now DBS checks with bottom information, reference checks, which include verbal references, having people on the interview panel who have done this these one day. So for recruitment training, we've talked earlier about the importance of organizations having comprehensive induction processes, as you say, go beyond just giving the person a pile of papers called policies and ask them to read it, having fit for purpose policies and procedures, having training delivered by suitably accredited trainers.

00:49:33:21 - 00:50:03:11

Anthony Goble - LADO

That's to a standard that meets the needs of those being employed promoting good role modeling behavior. So having senior managers who walk the walk and talk talk, you know, they they get all out there and can be publicly seen interacting with children and young people, promoting how the expected way that they should be dealt with and respected.

00:50:03:16 - 00:50:19:24

Steve Macabee - Host

And I think that often we see that that sort of culture within organizations and certainly coming down from the top, I think quite often, and whether that culture of violence, safeguarding isn't there right at the top, you do see that kind of cascading down I think, across the organization. Don't Yeah, what.

00:50:19:24 - 00:50:41:21

Anthony Goble - LADO

You would expect right from the top level of whatever the governance arrangements are for that organization through to its CEO, a.k.a head teacher, senior manager, whatever job title and the senior management team, middle management that is management and leadership that that drives forward the culture.

00:50:41:21 - 00:50:47:12

Steve Macabee - Host

And that culture of of openness, transparency, being so, so key to that, isn't it?

00:50:47:12 - 00:50:54:09

Anthony Goble - LADO

And clarity of role giving capacity for those with responsibilities for safeguarding and to do the role Well.

00:50:54:09 - 00:51:14:21

Steve Macabee - Host

I always, always think I always say to people that I think sometimes one of the keys around having an or developing and maintaining a safe culture is about not being afraid to have those conversations. You know, within your team meetings. What would you do if you had a concern? Talk about we talked about the whistleblowing policy earlier. Know what would you do if you had a concern about me?

00:51:14:21 - 00:51:26:08

Steve Macabee - Host

Let's talk about that. You know, just being open, talking about safeguarding. And I think the more that is talked about and communicate it the more it just kind of really develops that culture.

00:51:26:10 - 00:52:05:06

Anthony Goble - LADO

I mean, a good example of that is safe working practice because that benefits volunteers, employees and the organizations of everyone's communicating how to deal with certain situations, certain circumstances, how to operate and work and interact with young people in a way that doesn't leave you vulnerable to spurious allegations. That's that's vitally vital in terms of creating a robust, safeguarding culture, as is self-reporting, you know, the expectation of there being mutual trust and confidence between the employer and the employee is vital.

00:52:05:06 - 00:52:19:10

Anthony Goble - LADO

And that, from the employer's perspective, would be that employees recognize when they perhaps have fallen short of the required standards of behavior and report it to their line manager.

00:52:19:10 - 00:52:41:02

Steve Macabee - Host

And that that's self-reporting, again, like I say, really crucial that I'm going to I'm going to give you an example, actually, that somebody gave me on some training I was doing a while back, which was such a good example. I use it all the time now and somebody said this was somebody who did a lot of wonderful work with young people, quite often transported them in their car as part of the duties, part of their work.

00:52:41:04 - 00:53:05:22

Steve Macabee - Host

And they said to me, actually, they've been occasions where they've been driving along dual carriageway or motorway or something like that and the young person front the car and they've got to change gear and accidentally touch somebody's knee, the young person's knee. And they were the really clear saying actually you know, if that ever happened or when, when that's happened I've always self-reported that within my organization of always let people know about that.

00:53:05:22 - 00:53:30:18

Steve Macabee - Host

And, and actually when when you pick that apart a little pat completely innocent, completely low level, you know they've got to change gear not you know, not the fact it's been very accidental and it seems pretty small, incidental. But actually, if that person hadn't self-reported and in a couple of weeks time that young person was talking to somebody saying, yeah, it was really weird.

00:53:30:18 - 00:53:47:17

Steve Macabee - Host

The other day we were driving along and and he started touching my knee in the car, actually, how that might be sort of saying or but also bearing in mind that some of the young people might be working with may have experienced experience, lot of trauma in their lives and how that might be might be interpreted by that.

00:53:47:17 - 00:53:57:09

Steve Macabee - Host

And I thought it was a really good example to use because completely innocent but really important and important, they had the confidence to say, you know what, I need to let you know this happened here.

00:53:57:11 - 00:54:30:19

Anthony Goble - LADO

That's a really good example, Steve, and illustrates both from the young person and the adults there part and not so for the young person that can be triggering for them. As you say, if I've come from a from a familial abuse situation where touches construed not to be a positive thing and that actually has got some sort of sexual intent behind it, the ability for that young person to know who to go to, to share that concern that they are, that they are encouraged to bring that concern forward.

00:54:30:21 - 00:55:02:09

Anthony Goble - LADO

You know, we know how difficult that can be for us. Adults can make ourselves try and make ourselves indispensable by being really busy, busy, busy, busy. And we don't create that opportunity for young people and give them time to talk about their experiences. Young people struggle to communicate. They might use clumsy, clumsy language or inappropriate colloquialisms. Also, adults need to be very careful not to be dismissive of and and we really listen to them.

00:55:02:11 - 00:55:44:03

Anthony Goble - LADO

And that also contributes to creating a safeguarding culture from the adult's perspective, a child's good awareness of how their actions, what they say, what they can be misconstrued. It also shows the adult understands the expectations of their organizations, its values, and it shows responsibility by that adult, and it shows accountability, really crucial parts of safeguarding culture that people recognize their responsibilities and hold their hand up and show accountability.

00:55:44:05 - 00:55:57:18

Anthony Goble - LADO

I'd like to think that most employers would be empathetic. You know, we're working with humans and we're complex beings.

00:55:57:22 - 00:56:17:16

Steve Macabee - Host

You've had quite a quite a long and illustrious career, obviously, within Somerset and beyond then as well. But is there anything that you're sort of particularly proud of either for that you've been involved in or you as a team have been involved in, or there any particular good, good sort of success stories?

00:56:17:22 - 00:57:05:08

Anthony Goble - LADO

So as a team, what we're particularly proud of is the fact that despite the fact we don't work directly with children and families, we see our service as having an important contribution with other agencies and organizations to identify individuals who may be unsuitable, for whatever reason, working with children and young people, and to plan to take action to mitigate any potential identified risk or eliminate that risk, whether that be through ceasing to use that volunteer making a DBS referral to have them barred.

00:57:05:10 - 00:57:45:06

Anthony Goble - LADO

So we see ourselves very much as integral to that child protection system. And I think it's also a significant part of our role as that tenacious ness that we have to follow and ensuring that whatever process is followed to investigate an adult of concern where risk of being identified. We're very tenacious at making sure that process is followed and seen through and an outcome reached for the young person's benefit and for their parents benefit and carers benefit, but also for the for the adult of concern.

00:57:45:06 - 00:58:05:23

Anthony Goble - LADO

We neither want an adult to be suffer detriment from a spurious malicious allegation. And in terms of natural justice, they have a right to be subject to a process that recognizes their failings and their perspective is great.

00:58:06:01 - 00:58:38:11

Steve Macabee - Host

And I don't know and you guys do do a fantastic job. And I'm not just blowing smoke when I say that. And I know that you all, as a team, very highly regarded and appreciated, not just the work that you do, but the advice that you give as well, which is really key. So just to just kind of round off on that, then in terms of advice, I want, what advice would you give or kind of recommendations for any parents, caregivers or any professionals when it comes to recognizing and reporting child safeguarding concerns?

00:58:38:11 - 00:58:41:04

Steve Macabee - Host

What kind of nugget of advice would you give?

00:58:41:04 - 00:58:56:23

Anthony Goble - LADO

People know where to go. Most organizations providing services will have a procedure and it's about identifying where to find that procedure and who to go to with a concern.

00:58:57:00 - 00:59:04:22

Steve Macabee - Host

Thank you so much, Anthony. Thank you. I know you've got a very, very busy schedule at the moment, so I really appreciate you taking a bit of time today to come along and talk to me.

00:59:04:22 - 00:59:06:00

Anthony Goble - LADO

You're welcome. Thanks, Dave.

00:59:06:00 - 00:59:15:15

Steve Macabee - Host

So thank you so much. Great to talk to you and great to finally get you in the studio, too, for us to have a conversation. So thank you very much. And we'll see you again soon.

00:59:15:21 - 00:59:16:15

Anthony Goble - LADO

You're welcome.

00:59:16:17 - 00:59:55:20

Steve Macabee - Host

Thanks, Anthony, But as always, if you'd like to find out more details on the topics discussed in today's episode, go to the SSCP website at SomersetSafeguardingChildren.org.uk, where there's a dedicated managing allegations page there. In this episode I mentioned some of the training that Anthony and Stacey are currently running through. The SSCP focused on understanding and managing low level concerns, which is currently available to all education settings in Somerset, and you can find details to book your free space by visiting the CCP training page or by clicking on the link in the description for this episode.

00:59:55:22 - 01:00:15:24

Steve Macabee - Host

As always, if you have any questions or comments arising from today's episode or would like to be involved in future episodes, we'd love you to get in touch with us at theppod@Somerset.gov.uk.

Once again, I'd like to give a huge thank you to Anthony for joining us today. And as always, I'd like to thank you for listening.

01:00:16:01 - 01:00:25:12

Steve Macabee - Host

My name is Steve Macabee and I'm the training manager for the Somerset Safeguarding Children Partnership, and I look forward to you joining us again next time at the P Pod.

01:00:25:14 - 01:00:29:01

Speaker 1

That work together to help keep children safe.