Using Motivational Interviewing to Support Families (Pt.4) - MI in Practice

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Steve Macabee - Host

Okay. Welcome back, everybody, To the P Pod, the Partnership podcast from the Somerset Safeguarding Children Partnership. Now, I'm in a luxurious position today that I can slightly sit back and let something like this take over. And I'm really, really pleased once again to welcome back friend of the podcast to the Pod, Jacqui Webb, my trainer. And but also joining with us today is Sharon.

 00:00:37:19 - 00:00:39:07

Steve Macabee - Host

Sharon, do you want to introduce yourself.

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Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Yeah, Hi, I'm Sharon Ricketts. I'm a consultant social worker based in Shepton Mallet.

 00:00:43:19 - 00:00:47:15

Steve Macabee - Host

Fantastic. Thank you, Sharon. Thanks for joining us and welcome along. It's great to have you here.

 00:00:47:16 - 00:00:48:09

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Thank you.

 00:00:48:11 - 00:01:06:08

Steve Macabee - Host

So the plan today is basically come build on the previous podcast that we've recorded with Jacqui. And we were really keen to actually see it put into practice. What does that actually look like in terms of my we've talked about the the sort of the background, the theory, the techniques behind it. So we're going to kind of have a bit of a conversation between the two.

 00:01:06:08 - 00:01:24:15

Steve Macabee - Host

It's data to really kind of see what that looks like. But before we do that, it'll be really good to kind of find out a bit about yourself and your role within your own social care, but also about your yourself and my sort of journey and what those look like. So I know you've been doing a lot around them over the last few years, as have all of you, on social care.

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Steve Macabee - Host

So can we just start off with that in terms of your role, what is your role within the children's services?

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Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Yeah, sure. So I'm a consultant. Social worker is somebody who in terms of where we sit, we sit alongside team managers. That's kind of our place. I guess. If you were looking at the structure chart primarily our role is to support all of the workforce in learning and development. So it might be that we are delivering CPD's, our continuous professional development sessions once a week.

 00:01:55:06 - 00:02:24:07

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

It might be that we're delivering learning sets, doing colleague listening groups, anything that kind of would be helpful to enhance or develop the learning of our staff. And that includes social workers and and non-qualified social workers. And we also kind of primarily focus on students and newly qualified social workers who are coming into the profession. We might support them through student placements, we might support them through that.

 00:02:24:09 - 00:02:42:23

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

They're assisted and supported in employment. Yeah, So that's kind of basically our role. And as consultant social workers, there's two in each area of Somerset, so there's there's eight in total. And then we have Lizzy, who is also a consultant social worker who focuses just on kind of the students and the kind of adjective side of things.

 00:02:43:02 - 00:02:59:06

Steve Macabee - Host

Brennan Thank you. So, so I know you've been quite involved with with Emoji since it was first introduced by Jacqui within Somerset going back a few years ago now. Do you just kind of talk us through that in terms of mind? Was it something you were aware of before sort of doing any training around it?

 00:02:59:08 - 00:03:24:24

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Yeah, so I'd already done some my training when I trained to be a social worker. So through university we had we had those study skills days and and I think it was Jacqui actually who came out to university and delivered the session. Then, however, it was kind of in amongst the rest of a degree and I kind of heard it, but it didn't really like land on me, I guess, as much as I would have wanted it to.

 00:03:25:01 - 00:03:55:16

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

And then when I started in Somerset, we did the three days motivational interview training and just like the current model, you do two days and then come back and do the third day and it kind of I don't know why it landed differently for me when I was then qualified. I think I probably just had a bit more headspace to make sense of what Jacqui was saying and the ideas around me, which really, really fitted with my values and my ethics and the spirit in which I practice.

 00:03:55:16 - 00:04:16:18

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

And so it was really nice to have an evidence base, I guess, to say, Hey, guess what, this stuff works. And you're not just you're not just kind of making it up. There is an actual framework and there is evidence to say that you do get better outcomes if you if you kind of go with their style of working.

 00:04:16:20 - 00:04:46:09

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

So that kind of like pipped my, my enthusiasm for it and I wanted to know a bit more. And I guess in terms of how I took that, learning into embedding it within my practice. First of all, I'd say it takes a long time because although it seems quite simple, it's actually quite difficult to consciously do or, you know, when you purposely want to do it.

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Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

And it's easy to say, I already do that because it might be that you have the spirit of me, and most people do that I've come across anyway in my working career. But to to consciously bring the framework to your forefront and and practice that with others doesn't just come naturally. You have to be very kind of conscious.

 00:05:09:03 - 00:05:25:06

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

So the things that I would do, I guess in terms of going to home visits, I would be thinking, why am I going to this home visit today? What's the purpose of it? Where do we where do we need to be? What are we trying to hope? What is this family needing from me? How am I going to frame that?

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Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

What components of am I? Am I really going to try and be mindful of today? I wonder how many affirmations I might be able to offer or today I'm really just going to focus on listening for change talk, even if I do nothing else. That's just what I'm going to listen for. So I was just kind of testing myself out, really.

00:05:42:18 - 00:06:05:13

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

And the other thing that I would say that was really, really helpful was that I was around a team who'd also just been recently trained in MRI, and that kind of lifted the enthusiasm and the kind of conversation around me. So we would challenge each other to listen to podcasts or we would have a theme within our team meeting.

00:06:05:13 - 00:06:28:09

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Like so for example, we might say this week's focus, everyone's going to try and see how many reflections they can offer or listen for change talk, and then we'd come back the next week and and see how we did. And that really when there were times when maybe I was waning a bit and maybe my wasn't right, the forefront of my thinking it was for somebody else and they would help to lift me up.

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Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

So that that was really kind of helpful for me.

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Steve Macabee - Host

Jackie and I spoke before about we them. I is not one of those things. You can go on a day course and come out the next year and it's very much about it being part of that culture. Yes. And that's one of the most important things about it. And that culture of family within organizations.

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Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Yeah, you have to deliberately find a space to practice to talk about, to think about, to reflect on. Quite often this is probably a bit sad to admit, but quite often I just as I'm waking up in the morning, I will be thinking about am I like conversations I might need to have with people and genuinely because I, you know, really want to help and support.

00:07:09:24 - 00:07:40:11

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Like how can what can I bring to this conversation? How can I support this kind of space that we're going to have later to be the most use for the person I'm talking to? And and I guess as a consultant, social worker, a lot of the more conversations I have with my colleagues and with nearly qualified social workers and students, because I need to elicit from them what they think needs to happen or what they the direction of travel they want to go in.

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Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

And for me to be able to go along and guide that way needed.

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Steve Macabee - Host

So what difference have you seen in practice either with you talked about working with colleagues there or with with families that you work with? Have you seen much of a difference from from that approach?

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Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

And yes, I think so. Again, I suppose going back to my original point, it gives me a framework, I guess, in which to hang my practice on. And so before when I thought I was doing the right thing, I now know with my my hat on I am doing the right thing. So and I see that in the practice of others as well.

00:08:17:10 - 00:08:53:17

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

So in terms of being able to advocate. So I think we've spoken before about conflicts. Sometimes it can be really difficult because we need to trust the process of empathy and allow that to evolve, I guess. But we're also competing against plans and timescales and, you know, organizational pressures to get things done. And I think if we can stop and have that pause to consider where am I and where we're going, I think that helps to add weight and strength to to kind of trusting in the process that the family know best.

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Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

And and it fits within our strengths based practice of Somerset and avoids us going into that narrative of doing to which I know Somerset really want to not go down that pathway.

00:09:07:05 - 00:09:12:20

Steve Macabee - Host

Are you going to give any sort of examples of where you've seen it be really successful with families you work with?

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Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

I think probably I could talk about a family that I supported when I was a safeguarding social worker and the parent had come to children's social care to let us know that she was expecting a baby and she was also struggling with alcohol addiction and she really wanted the help to stop drinking, but she didn't really know where to start or how to go about that, but knew that she she wanted some help.

00:09:41:22 - 00:10:05:22

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

And I guess to try and keep it as concise as possible over the course of two years, which is a long time for children social care to be involved. We went from periods of sobriety and dry houses and mother and baby unit through the court process. We went through so many hurdles. It was it was unbelievable, actually, the journey that that was taken.

00:10:05:22 - 00:10:27:20

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

But every single juncture, the mum was the person who was saying what she what needed, what she needed. So she was able to say, actually, I can't stay in this mother and baby unit even though I really want to keep my child with me. I can't do that and get dry from alcohol. I can't do the two things together.

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Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

And what I need to do is end this placement and I need to go into a dry house for me and be on my own. And at that time as a social worker, everything on the inside of me was going, No, no, no, you need to stay like we want to try and keep you all together. And it took ages to get this funding for you to be able to get this place.

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Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

And we know that it's going to work. But what I had to do was stop and listen to this Mum who was saying, This isn't going to work for me. And it doesn't really matter how much money or effort or time we put into this pathway. It's not going to it's not going to do it. So I had to have faith that she knew what she needed.

00:11:06:15 - 00:11:33:03

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

And actually that's what we did. We went with that plan and we ended up coming out of court and back on to a child in need plan. And we closed. We've been closed for I think we've been closed for just over a year. And mum still messages me and she sends me pictures of her sobriety badges and she's been alcohol free for two years.

00:11:33:05 - 00:11:58:01

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

And what she says to me is that you always had faith, Sharon. She says she, like you, always believed in me and no matter how bad things go, our relationship kind of stayed. And that's because I did believe in her. I did, absolutely. I've never believed in anybody more. Actually. She was so determined that she was going to reach her goal and we just needed to help guide and facilitate for that to happen, really.

00:11:58:03 - 00:12:14:16

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

And I think that if we didn't have the EMI framework, that would have made those conversations and those times where I needed to really advocate for that mum so much harder because I would have felt that I was a bit on my own.

00:12:14:18 - 00:12:35:19

Steve Macabee - Host

And also that that that's an authoritarian approach and we've got a plan in place and you're not willing to do the plan. Yeah, so therefore it's all breaking down as opposed to that that relationship as Jacqui and I have talked about several times now, the importance that relationship and and our role within that to, like I say work with rather than do with rather than doing too.

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Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Yeah yeah it really was that and I and I I definitely would say there were times where I felt really worried thinking, oh my goodness me, I don't know if this is going to work or not, but I just had to have faith because I knew even though at times every fiber of my being just wanted to say no, you just need to do X, Y, and Z.

00:12:56:24 - 00:13:10:01

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

That's what I really, really wanted to say. But I knew deep down that that wouldn't have worked. So I needed to quiet, not down and just and kind of lift the voice of the mum and and it were.

00:13:10:03 - 00:13:31:24

Steve Macabee - Host

Thank you very much. Thank you so much for sharing that as well. How it works in practice and talk about how things actually work in practice. That's what today's episode is all about and it's time to bring back into the conversation. All right. A friend of the podcast, Jackie, who is going to have now a conversation with Sharon using me.

00:13:32:01 - 00:13:59:15

Steve Macabee - Host

Now, just before we get into this, I just want to be clear that this is not being planned in any way. It's not been scripted in any way. Obviously, Sharon knew that she was coming along today to do the podcast and to speak with Jackie. But Jackie has no awareness of what Sharon's going to talk about. And so at this point, I can now sit back a little bit and hand over to both Jackie and to Sharon to actually sort of demonstrate it how everything we've been talking about so far can actually be put into practice.

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Steve Macabee - Host

So, Jackie, over to you.

00:14:04:11 - 00:14:08:20

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

Okay. So so, Sharon, what would you like to talk about today?

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Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

I'd like to talk about my fitness routine, if I could. Hmm.

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Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

Something about your fitness.

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Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Yeah. So I as you know, I've set you before. I. I like running and I like doing CrossFit. They're equally quite hard for me, but I want to be good at both of them. And I am really. And I used to be able I guess what I'm trying to say is I used to be able to run three times a week and go to the gym four times a week, but I just and that used to be because I would get up in the morning and I would go training at 6 a.m. and then I would train after work so I could do like double trainings on some days.

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Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

So then I could still have rest days, but for whatever reason I just can't seem to make that happen at the moment. And it's quite frustrating.

00:15:02:11 - 00:15:04:24

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

Yeah, definitely, because fitness is so important for you.

00:15:05:01 - 00:15:07:00

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

So you're feeling a bit.

00:15:07:02 - 00:15:12:08

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

Yeah, a little bit frustrated. Yeah. And you can't quite work out what's happening.

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Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

No, And I know I'm tired because, like, it used to be that I would wake up in the morning, my alarm would go off and before I even allowed any thoughts to come into my mind, I would just be up and dressed and out. And then before I could even start having those conversations in my head of like, you don't really want to get up to you, but I just can't seem to I just can't seem to find my mojo to do that anymore.

00:15:41:04 - 00:15:47:01

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

And I'm getting I've been patient thinking it'll come, it'll come, but it has not come in.

00:15:47:03 - 00:15:54:09

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

So before you didn't really used to have to think about it. You just did it. But something's changing.

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Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know, I keep thinking, like, is it was it sustainable what I was doing before? Like to train eight times a week? Is that sustainable? Do I really want to do that forever? Was I. Was I just doing that? Because I had at the time I was following a training plan for my running, so I knew that I had to get up and go.

00:16:17:10 - 00:16:48:18

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Otherwise I might not be able to reach my goal at the end. So that kind of like was making me do that. But I also didn't want to lose my CrossFit, so but now I haven't got that goal. I guess there's a bit more of a choice. And is it really is it really an appropriate expectation of mine to say that I can work full time and train hard to run and train hard to do CrossFit?

00:16:48:20 - 00:16:50:23

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Some questioning. Yeah, I guess maybe.

00:16:51:00 - 00:17:15:19

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

You've got a bit of a dilemma by the sounds of it then, and there's a part of you that would like to get that mojo back and do the heavy training routine that you were doing before we had that goal. Yeah. And there's another side of you wondering if that's reasonable to be able to do that. And then everything else you've got to in your life.

00:17:15:20 - 00:17:39:18

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

But I know. So when I am training hard so as, you know, like being a social worker and the job that I do is quite emotionally and mentally draining, like it takes a lot out of me. And so exercise is really important because that is my physical way of, I don't know, like getting rid of all of that.

00:17:39:24 - 00:18:05:15

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

And so when I am exercising well and frequently I feel really good and I like the feeling that it gives me. I like having achy muscles. I like being able to have really content sleep because I may I'm physically exhausted as well as mentally. So I know it's really good for me to do, but I just I don't know why I'm not doing it.

00:18:05:17 - 00:18:09:14

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

So it's quite confusing for you looking at what's going on at the moment.

00:18:09:20 - 00:18:23:16

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Mhm. It is. And I think that's, that's probably why I wanted to talk to you about it today because I genuinely, I genuinely don't know what my barrier is to just doing it.

00:18:23:18 - 00:18:51:09

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

Mm hmm. Okay. So let me just check. I have understood you so far. And so you're always somebody that's like an exercise is really seriously, it's been really important to you just lately. You've noticed your motivation for doing as much Exercise is starting to fall off a little bit, and it sounds like what you'd like to do is get back to feeling motivated to do the exercise.

00:18:51:14 - 00:19:20:10

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Mhm. Yeah. Yeah, that's absolutely right. I think just the context I suppose before I train to be a social worker I did, I didn't do any exercise at all so it's only been in the last six years that I've exercised and it's become quite an important thing in my life and has really helped to give me balance and so I suppose I feel a bit is a bit unnerving.

00:19:20:10 - 00:19:21:09

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

Not having it.

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Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

To not have it as fully as I had it before when it's been such a constant staple throughout my social work.

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Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

Really helped you?

00:19:29:22 - 00:19:31:05

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:19:31:08 - 00:19:35:05

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

Tell me a bit more about that. You said that balance. What do you mean?

00:19:35:07 - 00:20:01:21

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Yeah. So in terms of like so when I went to go and do my social work degree, I had no idea if I would be able to cut the mustard, if I would be able to reach that level of academic study. And also then that the grit, I suppose, of being a social worker and having the conflict and the complexity and all of the the headspace that you needed to be a social worker and hold all of that.

00:20:01:23 - 00:20:31:14

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

And so, so I threw myself into CrossFit because I wanted something that was equally as physically hard to give me that that balance and that kind of like mental toughness versus physical toughness to try and almost not cancel them out, but just to help me manage, I guess. And, and it really worked. I never at school when I did exercise or like when my children were growing up, I never really felt that much from exercise.

00:20:31:16 - 00:20:54:18

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

But when I was studying and and then being a social worker, like I remember one of the most as a newly qualified social worker, I am I shadowed somebody who needed to remove some children from the family, and it was the first time I'd ever gone through that. And it was obviously the right thing that we needed to do in that moment.

00:20:54:18 - 00:21:02:10

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

But it was a horrific thing to experience. And the what I did was I drove home and I got my running kit on and I ran and.

00:21:02:10 - 00:21:03:09

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

It was and that helped.

00:21:03:12 - 00:21:09:19

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

It really helped. And so I don't want to lose that mechanism that I've got a coping mechanism.

00:21:09:21 - 00:21:26:13

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

So back when you were training to be a social worker, you, you know, the seed was sown for yourself then by the sound of it, that you needed to be strong and you needed a way of coping with what was a very emotionally difficult job. Yeah. And you're slightly missing that.

00:21:26:15 - 00:21:43:00

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Yes. Yes. And I think and I suppose I it it worries me because if I lose if I lose the thread of exercise and that motivation, will that ultimately mean I can't do my job.

00:21:43:02 - 00:21:51:07

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

But if self doubt, then you can cope. If you don't have the only coping mechanism that's worked for you. Yeah.

00:21:51:09 - 00:21:52:08

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Yeah.

00:21:52:10 - 00:21:59:21

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

Yeah. So that must feel like a, you know, difficult place to be right now.

00:21:59:23 - 00:22:28:00

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Yeah, I and I don't really know. I don't know if it links with my changing role. So obviously before I was a frontline social worker where everything was really hardcore and busy and, and very, very stressful and now as a consultant social worker, I am I'm, I'm kind of more of a thinker and more of a porter and reflector and an educator.

00:22:28:00 - 00:22:48:12

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

So whether that like level of intensity has dropped in my working role and that has therefore dropped in my need to exercise, I don't know, but in my head I still, I still want to thrive in exercise. At the moment I don't feel like I'm thriving.

00:22:48:14 - 00:22:58:05

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

Yeah, so you can kind of think about it and find reasons for it. And it feels clear to you though, that it is something that you'd like to get back to.

00:22:58:08 - 00:23:06:21

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Yes. Yes, I would. Yeah. I want to be able to get back to it is just knowing how I make that fit in my routine.

00:23:06:22 - 00:23:21:16

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

Okay. So, Sharon, on a scale of 1 to 10, where one is not at all important and ten is really important, how important is it for you to get back to the level of exercise you were doing before?

00:23:21:18 - 00:23:31:14

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Well, it's bothering me. Bothering me probably more than I recognize. So I'd say it's I'd say it's probably about an eight hour night.

00:23:31:16 - 00:23:37:12

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

And what makes you choose an eight and not say a two? What gives it that level of importance?

00:23:37:14 - 00:23:49:06

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

AT Well, I guess for all of the things that I said before in terms of what it gives me and knowing that it's really helpful for me and that is something I really enjoy.

00:23:49:08 - 00:23:56:07

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

So you've mentioned how it helps you cope with with work. In what other ways is it helpful?

00:23:56:09 - 00:24:20:09

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

So I am less likely to argue with my husband. I can literally go into the gym feeling quite cross and frustrated and pent up about the the world and just, I don't know, but grumpy, I guess. And then I will go in and I can do a work out or go for a really good run. Has to be a good run, not just a little run.

00:24:20:11 - 00:24:30:10

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

And once I finished, I feel lighter. I feel like I'm lifted. So it impacts on my mood for the whole of the rest of that day.

00:24:30:12 - 00:24:37:02

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

So it helps you not just in work but also your daily life. Yes. In your relationship you said Yes.

00:24:37:02 - 00:24:52:12

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Yeah. And I'm with the gym. I go to like training classes. So it's also a bit of a social life. So as I got older, I can't drink so much alcohol, so I don't tend to go to the pub or anything anymore. So it is also a social outlet for me, a.

00:24:52:13 - 00:24:54:14

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

Way of mixing with like minded people.

00:24:54:14 - 00:24:56:11

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Yeah. Yeah.

00:24:56:13 - 00:25:09:17

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

So, Sharon, can I ask you this? So on a scale this time where one is not very confident and ten is really confident, how confident are you that you could get back to training as much as you did if you decided to?

00:25:09:19 - 00:25:29:10

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Oh, I feel really confident that I could do it because I've done it before. And, you know, I know that I can be really kind of religious about my training. Yeah. And disciplined about my my training schedule. So I would say I probably be a nine. Okay.

00:25:29:12 - 00:25:53:15

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

So the fact that you've done it before gives you a lot of confidence that if you did decide to, you could do this. Yes. Yeah. Okay. So if you did decide to because we're not saying that you have, but let's say if you did decide to, what sorts if you go about, what would make you successful?

00:25:53:17 - 00:26:18:16

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Well, I love a plan, so I definitely would. As I said before, I think the reason that I was following my running routine and then doing CrossFit is because I had a goal and literally it would come up on my watch and would say, Two days are run day, you need to do this. And then I almost didn't want to let my watch down because that's what I've committed to.

00:26:18:18 - 00:26:30:20

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

So I think I would definitely need to have some time so that I could sit down and come up with a plan and a routine to make that possible.

00:26:30:22 - 00:26:50:21

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

So you know yourself well, and if you commit to something, you stick to it. Yes. So if you were to stick to a plan, if you were to make a plan, you know that you're going to stick to it. Yes. So if well, what would that plan look like? If you've got a sense of what that would look like to be helpful.

00:26:50:23 - 00:27:11:23

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Yeah. So I guess the times when I've fallen down with my planning, because I guess if it was that easy, I'd be doing it right. So the times that it's fallen down is within my work Now. We we work from home a bit, we work in the office a bit, and sometimes that moves around. And so I like having a fixed plan.

00:27:11:23 - 00:27:28:19

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

I like knowing that I might run this Sunday and I go to the gym on these days of the week and I run on these days of the week. And so I can I can do that and that's fine. But then when I need to then be flexible with work, that is then the sticking point because then I might need to move it.

00:27:28:21 - 00:27:29:22

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

So throws you.

00:27:29:22 - 00:27:55:05

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

And that throws me. So that's the bit that I probably need to be a bit more mindful about. And so maybe that takes a longer, a longer view of planning to make sure that I have as much as I possibly could say fixed days that I work. Because if I work from home then I could run in the morning and I could go to the gym in the evening because I still have enough time so I wouldn't need to do so much traveling though.

00:27:55:05 - 00:27:58:20

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Maybe I need to try and marry those up a bit more.

00:27:58:20 - 00:28:01:17

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

You mentioned a longer view of the plan.

00:28:01:19 - 00:28:20:06

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Yeah. So I my planning tends to, although I might say I want to do this over the course of a month, I will look a week and I have a confession. I, i meal plan for the week. I have a table up on the fridge about where I'm going to be, what I'm going to do, what things we've got.

00:28:20:06 - 00:28:42:17

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

And then I'll also diaries in where I think I'm going to run and where I think I'm going to go to the gym. But I'm only doing that week by week and maybe I need to look at it a a longer and put into my work diary. These are the days that I am going to be home because I'm less likely to put in things that require me to go into the office.

00:28:42:17 - 00:28:43:15

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Right?

00:28:43:17 - 00:29:02:02

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

So then you can almost have a social work around your training, your your exercise rather than the other way round. Yes. So you're someone that likes to feel in control of your life. Yeah. And you like to feel in control of your training?

00:29:02:07 - 00:29:15:11

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Yes. Yes. Because if there's a moment for me, if there's some wiggle room for me to not train, I will exploit that. Whereas if it's very clear and I know exactly what I'm supposed to do, I will do it. Okay.

00:29:15:13 - 00:29:36:08

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

So let me just check then. I'm so, so, Sharon, I'm training. It's always been important to you right back from when you trained to be a social worker. It was a way of coping and it's worked. You're missing it for those reasons, by the sound of it. And you would like to get back to it. You also talked about training hard.

00:29:36:08 - 00:30:15:24

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

There's no need. No. Would you kind of any you know, any room to just do things half heartedly? You want it to help you with sleep. You want it to help you to manage your emotions, how your moods and your relationships. And it's part of a whole system really for you. It fits into the system of how you like to lead your life and not doing it seems to have thrown you out a little bit and you'd like to get back to it if you did decide that that was something that you wanted to get back to, you feel really confident you could do that if you decided to, and you're starting to wonder about

00:30:15:24 - 00:30:26:14

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

changing the way you plan your exercise so that the exercise takes a bit more prominence and doesn't get kind of kicked off when other things change.

00:30:26:16 - 00:30:43:23

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's exactly right. I just yeah, I think I just need to put more thought into my planning because I know I can do the exercise. I just can't seem to find space for it. And that will come down to planning.

00:30:43:23 - 00:30:58:04

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

Okay. So if you did decide that you were going to look at your planning over a longer period of time, what's going to make it more likely that you actually do it?

00:30:58:06 - 00:31:18:12

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

This is such an insight into my life. I need to plan some time to plan. So because I love to I love to do lists. So if I if I've got it on my to do list, even if it sits there for a couple of days, I'll then get so annoyed by it being on there that I will diary some time to do it.

00:31:18:14 - 00:31:19:14

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

It'll get to the top.

00:31:19:15 - 00:31:21:04

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Yes. Mhm.

00:31:21:06 - 00:31:25:20

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

So writing it down somewhere and having it as an action for yourself.

00:31:25:20 - 00:31:26:08

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Yeah.

00:31:26:10 - 00:31:28:23

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

Planning time is more likely to happen.

00:31:29:01 - 00:31:30:24

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Yes. Yeah.

00:31:31:01 - 00:31:38:23

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

So what are the things that might get in the way of you doing that and how would you overcome them.

00:31:39:00 - 00:32:07:24

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Um, so me is one of the things that would get in the way because I might think I'll do that later, all of which is my failsafe is to have my to do list. So I, I think as long as I've got it on my to do list, that would be fine because I am if I literally if I've got something that I'm being that I've written down that I tell myself, I've got to do it, I'll just do it.

00:32:08:01 - 00:32:30:05

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

And I can I know that I have let me think. I think so. I wouldn't I could I could possibly do it this weekend because I think that my husband and my child are out. So that would give me some time. And I know distraction to get that done.

00:32:30:10 - 00:32:41:00

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

So you're now thinking about when you might be able to do it to to not to just So is that to put it on the list or is that separate to be the planning time?

00:32:41:02 - 00:32:51:19

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

So in my mind, I've already put it on my list. I was on the list. I visualized my to do list, which is at home on my office desk and now I'm thinking, when can I diaries in that time.

00:32:51:21 - 00:32:53:06

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

Moved it forward a bit.

00:32:53:08 - 00:33:03:20

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Yeah. Because if I don't identify that time then then it could slip. And I definitely don't want to leave it for too long because otherwise it.

00:33:03:22 - 00:33:12:02

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

Will lose sums words on a piece of paper. Yeah. So you're wondering about this weekend being a good time to start planning.

00:33:12:07 - 00:33:18:18

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Yeah. Yeah. So that would be a good time for me to start kind of getting a routine in it.

00:33:18:20 - 00:33:19:17

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

Time off because.

00:33:19:17 - 00:33:23:16

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

I've got some time off from work so I could establish that so that when I come back into work.

00:33:23:18 - 00:33:24:14

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

Keep it going.

00:33:24:19 - 00:33:25:03

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Yeah.

00:33:25:08 - 00:33:30:23

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

So how likely is it you think that you're going to do the planning this weekend?

00:33:31:00 - 00:33:45:09

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

I think is very likely because I you know, that's that's part of the reason why I wanted to come and talk to you, because I just I knew that it's something that's been bothering me and I just needed to I needed to kind of have a bit of clarity about what I'm going to do, how I'm going to get there.

00:33:45:09 - 00:33:50:11

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

So I'm definitely I, I think it's very likely that I'll do it this weekend.

00:33:50:11 - 00:33:57:13

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

Lovely. So it sounds like you've got a bit of a plan for this weekend. Yeah, brilliant. Thank you, Sharon.

00:33:57:18 - 00:34:11:20

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Thank you, Jacqui.

00:34:11:22 - 00:34:25:24

Steve Macabee - Host

Brilliant, Sharon. Jacqui, thank you so much for that. That was that was brilliant. Kind of feeling to it, to observe it. But also it just to kind of make the point that that wasn't role playing, that you were having the conversations about, which are genuine things within your life. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

00:34:26:01 - 00:34:48:08

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

I, I know, because obviously, I knew that I was coming today. I really did think hard about what it is. That was something that was bothering me because I'm we've we've spoken before that even though I know that the conversation that we've just had was obviously to feed in for this podcast, it still has even though I know that it still has a really positive effect.

00:34:48:08 - 00:34:59:24

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

And I know that come the weekend I will be planning. So yeah, I selfishly thought, what do need right now? Actually thought of something I needed to talk about. Yeah.

00:35:00:01 - 00:35:11:10

Steve Macabee - Host

But Bankston Yeah, that's what it's all about. And I think to be honest, when we talked about this recording, this, you know, if you stage something, it becomes very staged and then could actually, I think if you, if you talk about something genuine, you could actually say it in person lately.

00:35:11:13 - 00:35:45:04

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

And I think it illustrates all over again that we're all ambivalent about stuff. Otherwise, you know, we'd have done everything, none of us would prevaricate. And but there's something really different about verbalizing things that go round around in your head, and it feels different, I think, to speak aloud what's going on and if you like, because in my practitioner, you're facilitating the person talking to themselves and not trying to get in their way.

00:35:45:06 - 00:35:54:24

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

And I think a lot of what my is, is learning to not get in people's way, but instead to kind of gently nudge the process forward.

00:35:55:04 - 00:36:01:22

Steve Macabee - Host

Hmm. So, Sharon, how did that feel for you to go through that? And thank you for being so honored. Yeah so open about.

00:36:01:24 - 00:36:30:16

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

I'm yeah, and it always feels good when I have a I conversation. I suppose there's part of me that even before I have the conversation because I know that I'm coming to talk about something that I either ambivalent about or that I want to change. That process in my mind has already started and so it's almost like I'm playing a game in my head because I just I know what I need to do.

00:36:30:17 - 00:36:48:02

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

I just need to do it. But am I gives you that space to play around with your thoughts and your feelings about things and can you do this? Can you do that? So I really value that space and being able to do that. So yeah, it felt really good.

00:36:48:03 - 00:37:13:13

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

Again, I think what you just said that's really important because most of the time the people we're working with will also know what's in their best interests. Yeah, but it's easy to talk yourself out of change because change is hard. You know, there's probably a bit of you that would like to just turn the alarm off and get back under the covers when it's still dark outside.

00:37:13:13 - 00:37:44:10

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

Yeah, Stuff. So depending on if I'd start started trying to convince you you need to do that and you argue against it and yeah so it it sort of sounds obvious and I think that's kind of something we've talked about on this podcast before. It it sounds so obvious, but I had somebody actually who came to one of the one day courses actually, and she said, I came because I saw you at the Taunton Racecourse, you know, doing the very brief workshop.

00:37:44:12 - 00:38:07:17

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

And she said, Ah, I can do that. That looks really easy, right? And she said, I tried it and realized it wasn't easy. And that's not I'm not blowing my own trumpet there. What I mean is it it does sound like this is obvious, but there's so many other things getting it can come into our head when we're listening, which is like, Well, have you thought about, you know, getting an app?

00:38:07:17 - 00:38:13:07

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

Have you sort of, you know, and the more we do that, it sort of gets in the person's way.

00:38:13:09 - 00:38:36:08

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

I think there's something about because when we were going through that my conversation and just picking up on what you're saying, Jacqui, there's something about sitting in. So I, I notice that when I have in my conversation with somebody or when Jacqui, you were just talking to me, then there no moment where I thought, you're trying to move me on.

00:38:36:10 - 00:38:57:06

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

And and actually we were kind of hanging around in spaces for longer than other conversations might. So there's something about sitting in that place for a bit longer to kind of pull a bit more information out, elicit a bit more and and ponder about what that really feels like to be in that situation.

00:38:57:08 - 00:39:02:10

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

Allowing the time for the person to process.

00:39:02:10 - 00:39:03:11

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Yes.

00:39:03:13 - 00:39:18:24

Steve Macabee - Host

And we talked about that before to me that but that that sort of instinct we have to fill that that space to fill that gap and feel like, okay, there's a pause there. So I've got to do something with didn't again, I'm trying to do it the way you kind of talk us through sort of broadly the kind of process we.

00:39:18:24 - 00:39:51:04

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

Just went through and please Chip in. Sharon Okay. You know, and so really at the start and with the engaging process, it's really just and which is approximately 20% of any conversation, just approximately that really just listening to try and understand the person where they're coming from. And obviously that's for the worker to understand. But crucially, it's for the person to understand themselves.

00:39:51:06 - 00:40:40:22

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

And interestingly, sometimes that is just enough. The the whole the person listening to themselves aloud, you often get even in a few short minutes, the person going, well, of course it's obvious what I need to do, but what you're not doing in that engaging process is offering advice, trying to fix it for them, all of those things. So really it's that that just that pure listening, listening to understand and then, you know, just clarifying the focus because that wasn't completely sort of obvious to me to start with, but then became a little bit clearer with the, you know, it's I do want to get back to the training now once I've got the shared collaboratively

00:40:40:22 - 00:41:13:12

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

agreed focus with Sharon. Now what I need to do is think about increasing motivation for the change, which is the evoking process. So that's really I was picking up on some change talk there that I heard in asking Sharon what she meant, not for my benefit for Sharon to become clearer about what she means. And then there was a tool I used which is scaling, asking about the importance, the change and confidence about that.

00:41:13:14 - 00:41:22:00

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

She we just talk about that a bit because I was you know, I was really interested as I really couldn't have predicted what you said.

00:41:22:02 - 00:41:45:07

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Yeah. So when I, when I stopped it, when you asked me that question, I hadn't. So obviously I knew I was coming to talk about what I talked about. I hadn't thought about the tools that you might use and the scaling options. And so I just thought in the moment about I know that when I am fully on board with something, I will 100% do it.

00:41:45:09 - 00:41:59:06

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

And so I don't doubt that part of me is just the getting to that part. So in terms of my confidence about pulling something off and doing it, yeah, I felt I felt right about that.

00:41:59:10 - 00:42:19:12

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

That's really interesting because if I hadn't done that, I could have assumed your confidence was lower because like a lot of people do, and it's a bit of a red herring actually, when people say, I just need to understand why I'm not doing it. So in my we need to be really cautious, fair about saying, well, why do you think you're not doing it?

00:42:19:14 - 00:42:44:16

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

Because then of course, what I'm eliciting is sustained to reasons not to do it. So I'm going to not ask you about that until a bit later in the planning process, because can you see how you could easily then start to hear yourself? And if we're thinking, am I is all about the verbalization of either change talk or sustained talk, I want to elicit change talk from you.

00:42:44:18 - 00:42:56:01

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

So in a way I'm ignoring you saying I just need to understand why I'm not doing it, and instead asking you the equivalent of, well, what might the benefits be if you did?

00:42:56:02 - 00:43:16:23

Steve Macabee - Host

And I say what was interesting actually, for me, observing it in that point you were talking about is in our first episode, we kind of touched on the sort of difference between my and sort of coaching. For example, and I was thinking actually at that point, as you just talking about within that coaching model, probably at that point you'd be looking at, Okay, so what are the barriers that are stopping you from doing that?

00:43:16:23 - 00:43:17:09

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

Yeah.

00:43:17:13 - 00:43:28:10

Steve Macabee - Host

And how can you then overcome those barriers? Yes. And like you say, you didn't you didn't approach that. You didn't go down that route. So I guess that's kind of a really good definition of what an example of what that difference is.

00:43:28:12 - 00:43:55:05

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

And that's a crucial difference, is we I mean, it's not that we would never ask about that in my. But you've got to be, especially if you're a beginner, be really careful that that's a rabbit hole that you can get yourself down really easily. And if you think about why you're doing that, if you ask about the barriers and you're going to elicit sustained talk, how are you going to get yourself out of that hole?

00:43:55:07 - 00:44:26:08

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

Because what will happen usually is, as we're asking for barriers, the fixing reflex pops up and we start start trying to fix the barriers. And now you're not doing meaning, you know, So it it's it's just being really mindful that even so I've had this some training very interestingly a quite a few times where somebody presents the change as I just need to understand why I'm not doing this.

00:44:26:10 - 00:44:44:21

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

But that's the red herring and we need to find the focus, which might be, let's say the focus might be doing more exercise. The focus isn't why I'm doing the exercise and it's it's being really clear with the person what the focus is. I hope I haven't been too confusing.

00:44:44:23 - 00:45:05:23

Steve Macabee - Host

No, I think well, the other thing was interesting sort of observing that is that I kind of felt like there was there was a risk that three quarters the way through that it was like, okay, great, we're there. Yeah, we've done it with our we've, we've cracked it, you've identified it, here we go. And but actually that wasn't the end of that process.

00:45:06:00 - 00:45:12:24

Steve Macabee - Host

And I know normally, as we talked about, you wouldn't necessarily go right interactions of action planning as we did today but but actually.

00:45:12:24 - 00:45:13:20

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

Felt appropriate.

00:45:13:20 - 00:45:26:22

Steve Macabee - Host

If that appropriate. Yeah but but also I think that you could have potentially thought okay, great with their three course way through with their job done happy days but actually kind of progressed that that's when we sort of get more out of scaling and.

00:45:27:03 - 00:45:52:20

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

Yeah so often the if we're thinking of the four processes of them all evoking and planning often start to merge a bit. So you're moving from the why to the how and actually you were starting to think about the how. So I was kind of, if you like, going with Sharon's lead, but then it's time to start kind of cementing, if you like, build in that commitment to the plan.

00:45:53:00 - 00:46:19:03

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

If you like, you know, I think I think I asked something like, what's going to make it more likely that you do that? And just really getting you to think about may be barriers at that point, but only when it sounds like the decision's been made that the person actually wants the change. Then you might say, what might the barriers be and how might you overcome them, not just what's going to get in your way.

00:46:19:05 - 00:46:23:01

Steve Macabee - Host

And the summarizing there at the end as well. You really sort of putting all together.

00:46:23:03 - 00:46:24:14

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

What was that like? Sharon Well.

00:46:24:14 - 00:46:25:23

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

I really enjoyed it.

00:46:26:00 - 00:46:27:16

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

The summary, Yeah.

00:46:27:18 - 00:47:05:00

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Yeah, I did really enjoy it because it just, it kind of like solidified, like brought everything together of the whole conversation and why this is important to me, why we've just spent that time to have that conversation. And what I feel I would like to take from this conversation and move forward. And and just going back to the point on the planning, I literally am because I don't know that I've been through and my conversation where we've done planning to that degree before and I genuinely dared visualize my to do list at home.

00:47:05:02 - 00:47:08:09

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

And I could see that being written on the note.

00:47:08:09 - 00:47:11:02

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

Yeah, I could see from your eyes that you were picturing it.

00:47:11:02 - 00:47:29:03

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Yeah. Which then made me think about the plans. And so that was really powerful because that's like it tapped that conversation, tapped into all of the little things that I do to make things happen in my life. So that was really personal and powerful.

00:47:29:05 - 00:47:43:07

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

So that envisioning was something I think we could both see Sharon doing that, and it's paying attention as the listener to that and just sort of and going with that.

00:47:43:09 - 00:48:03:01

Steve Macabee - Host

Fantastic. Well, thank you so much both for coming in and doing that today. I think it's been brilliant, actually. See it, let's say put into practice and then what that could actually look like. And and I think the point you both made at the start is this is something that takes practice, takes a bit of time. But hopefully we've been able to to demonstrate a little bit about actually how it does actually work.

00:48:03:03 - 00:48:05:16

Steve Macabee - Host

Thank you so much. I mean, brilliant. And you both really appreciate it.

00:48:05:17 - 00:48:06:05

Sharron Ricketts - Consultant Social Worker

Thank say.

00:48:06:05 - 00:48:09:13

Jackie Webb - MI Trainer

Thank you.

00:48:09:15 - 00:48:37:19

Steve Macabee - Host

Well, I hope that today's episode has really helped to demonstrate me in practice and bring alive some of the things that Jackie has been talking to us about in her previous. Just a reminder, if this has sparked your enthusiasm to find out more than Jackie is running the one day introduction to Motivational Interviewing course, which is fully subsidized for all Somerset agencies, that's available to everybody that's set for colleagues from children's social care who want to take more intensive three day meet training with Jackie.

00:48:37:21 - 00:48:59:19

Steve Macabee - Host

You can book your free space now through the SSCP training page and to make it even easier to find. I've included a link in the training on the episode description. So if you have any questions or comments arising from today's episode or would like to be involved in future episodes, we'd love you to get in touch with us at ThePPod@Somerset.gov.uk

00:48:59:21 - 00:49:20:13

Steve Macabee - Host

My thanks once again to my guest today, Jackie Webb, motivational interviewing trainer for allowing us to put her on the spot and run a live demonstration. And of course to Sharon Ricketts, consultant, social worker who is willing to share quite personal details with us to help bring alive Am I in practice my thanks as well as always to you for listening.

00:49:20:15 - 00:49:31:12

Steve Macabee - Host

My name is Steve Maccabee and I'm the multi-agency training manager for the Somerset Safeguarding Children Partnership. And I look forward to you joining us again next time at the PPod.