Sally Shearer from the National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel

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Welcome to the P Pod.

00:00:15:01 - 00:01:00:17
Steve Macabee - Host
Hello and welcome everybody to the Pod, the Partnership podcast from the Somerset Safeguarding Children Partnership. I'm really pleased today as we kind of further explore the agencies and the mechanisms in place to safeguard children across England. To introduce our guests today, Sally Shearer, OBE from the Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel. If you're not familiar with the Child Safeguarding Practice Review panel, this came in on the back of the Children and Social Work Act back in 2017 and obviously had quite an impact following the update to working together to safeguard children 2018 just a year later, which really kind of revised the way that we learn when there's been serious safeguarding events taking place and both

00:01:00:17 - 00:01:20:19
Steve Macabee - Host
on a local basis and on a national basis as well. So let me say, I'm very, very pleased today that Sally Shearer has from the national panel has given a time to us today to talk about her role with the national panel and about how locally and nationally we can improve safeguarding practice. So, Sally, thank you so much for joining us today.

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Steve Macabee - Host
It's great to see you.

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Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
It's a pleasure. It's great to be here.

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Steve Macabee - Host
Well, we're going to get into talking about the work of the national panel in a moment. But before we do, we really have to get to know you a little bit. So could you just kind of tell us a little bit about yourself and your background?

00:01:37:06 - 00:02:08:13
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
Yeah, sure. I'm a children's nurse by background. I was trained in Nottingham and I worked there for 20 years and then I went to East London and worked across seven sites in East London for two or three years. And then latterly I've been at Sheffield Children's where I was the chief nurse and also I'm deputy chief executive. So I retired from the NHS last August and was looking for something that would use my skills.

00:02:08:13 - 00:02:37:06
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
I was thinking about what part of my job to I particularly enjoy and safeguarding was one of my passions, so it couldn't have been more perfectly timed that this job came up when it did and I joined the panel last August. So that's work. And I'm also a granny. So on a monday I have my grandson, he's almost two, and we go to the local tots group and that's great fun.

00:02:37:08 - 00:02:59:11
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
But actually, I think what those two things do, the recent clinical practice, you know, you never I'm not that too far away from clinical practice that I can't remember how challenging it was and the top scrape on the Monday. It also reminds me how hard it is actually being a parent, that juggling, particularly at the moment with the cost of living.

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Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
I'm meeting mums on a monday morning who are doing a brilliant job. It's it's tough, isn't it, keeping all the balls in the air. So that is really grounded.

00:03:09:18 - 00:03:27:08
Steve Macabee - Host
Yeah. No, and you're right. And I have two children of eight, eight years old and five years old and like so it does keep you grounded, but it does remind you, actually, it's hard. It is a hard job. And I think sometimes in society, we kind of expect things to be perfect and wonderful and suddenly you have a baby and you know how to parent.

00:03:27:08 - 00:03:43:10
Steve Macabee - Host
And I think it's important, I say, to keep on grinding out and grounding ourselves, to say, actually, it is tough. It is hard. And and actually a lot of families need support. And like I say, particularly at the moment, there's a lot of challenges for families out there. So the more we can kind of put in place to support families, the better.

00:03:43:10 - 00:03:53:15
Steve Macabee - Host
I think So. Thank you. So what inspired you to kind of pursue the career that you have sort of had quite a career spanning over many years now, So what got you into it?

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Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
Um, I think when I look back, if you if you delved into my psychology, both of my grandmother's were in hospital for protracted periods of time when I was a small child and I used to go and visit them. So I think there's something there. And then this sounds really cheesy, Steve, but in the 1970s, there was a television program, a drama called Angels, okay?

00:04:17:19 - 00:04:46:11
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
And it was about a group of student nurses and their life on the ward. And then they all lived together in a nursing home. And so it was a bit of a look at both sides of their lives. And for me, nursing looked to be flippin hard work, but it looked to be incredibly rewarding. And I think the real hook was that camaraderie, that there's difficult days at work and then when you all get home, some people struggle.

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Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
People struggle at different times. But the rest of the group, you will. There's always somebody who will pick you up and shake it down and say, Come on, let's get going again. And that has been the value that absolutely stayed with me throughout my career. It's hard work, but come on together, we can all do this.

00:05:05:13 - 00:05:36:19
Steve Macabee - Host
Yeah, I think you're right. And that's so crucial. And I think in any any role that you play in any walk of life, like I say, that camaraderie, that that companionship, that sense of working together with people is absolutely key, isn't it? Yeah. So what sort of motivated you, like you mentioned earlier in terms of kind of your retirement, but in terms of the move to to the Child Safeguarding Practice review panel, I'll say sort of a bit of a shift for later on in your career, sort of what what motivated you to kind of make that change?

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Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
I suppose when I was looking for something part time when I retired, I was thinking about I thought about my whole portfolio and which bits of it that I particularly enjoyed because there's no point doing something that that you're not really interested in is for me. And I've always been involved in safeguarding. When I worked in Nottingham, I worked on a baby ward, so I guessed that a lot of non-accidental injury.

00:05:59:22 - 00:06:25:11
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
We were there as a surgical center, so a lot of headed babies with head injuries who then would come back for repeat surgery. So I suppose that's where my interest in safeguarding started. And then when I moved to East London, I was exposed to a whole new world. So knife crime was something that I hadn't really experienced in Nottingham.

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Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
We have some crime in Nottingham at that time, but we didn't have knife crime, clinical criminal exploitation. Yeah, well, something quite new to me. We've got a much denser population, say the numbers of safeguarding cases are higher and also you're obviously exposed to different cultures. And then I was based across Newham, Tower Hamlets, Waltham Forest and a variety of cultures across those three London boroughs.

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Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
And Newham is actually where a lot of people come into the country. So long experience and their work just understanding how different people and experience parenting really is. So and then as I've moved throughout my career, I moved into more of an advisory and oversight and governance role relating to safeguarding. And it was something that I've got a specific interest in.

00:07:27:03 - 00:07:36:04
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
So I was looking for an safeguarding was top of my list and I was just really fortunate that the Post came along when it did.

00:07:36:06 - 00:07:55:24
Steve Macabee - Host
No, it's it's a fascinating role and I will talk about that. The role of the panel itself in a moment. But I think you're right. It is a fascinating role. And talking about that that that impact that you can have, I think probably in terms of the the the National Safeguarding Panel and the impact that can have, you know, across all practice across the countries is phenomenal.

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Steve Macabee - Host
So it's great stories. So in terms of kind of some of the key kind of lessons that you've learned over your sort of time in sort of practice and now sort of what are some of the key messages you've learned in terms of kind of working with families and in terms of safeguarding?

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Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
I think the most important message is that you have to keep an open mind. And even though you think that you've seen everything, even after 42 years, you haven't. So that would be the first message. And I think also it's really important not only to look after the child, obviously, that's of paramount concern in a safeguarding case, but the families as well.

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Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
And we've seen particularly with the author and star review the impact of that broader extended family when they lose a child. And also really important to look after your colleagues. And if it never underestimates just how challenging this work is, but also to look after yourself.

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Steve Macabee - Host
Absolutely.

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Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
And so, you know, even after 42 years, I think I'm quite heartened. But just reflecting, getting ready for today, I was thinking of an inquest that I attended about three years ago and that had quite a profound effect on me. And people asked me if I was okay and I'd say, Oh, yeah, yeah, I'm fine, but actually I wasn't fine.

00:09:23:07 - 00:09:55:04
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
And and it pops out somewhere in the end, doesn't it? Does he expect it? So just something about looking after yourself and then to keep learning. Because for me, over 42 years, safeguarding is ever evolving. And in 1980, when I joined the NHS, you could never have imagined and online world, could you? Yeah, it's all media and everything that that has brought to safeguard in practice since whenever done with learning?

00:09:55:06 - 00:10:14:01
Steve Macabee - Host
No, absolutely. And I think in the training that I deliver, you know, that's one of the key messages is we should be constantly learning, we should be constantly evolving. And like I say, actually, when you look at some aspects these days, when we talk about child sexual exploitation, it wasn't that long ago we really started to recognize child sexual exploitation.

00:10:14:01 - 00:10:32:10
Steve Macabee - Host
And now criminal exploitation is certainly when we go back to kind of, you know, the Rotherham Rochdale inquiry is where we really started talking about that, which wasn't that long ago, let's say, in terms of the digital world, only 2017 Digital Economy Act came out again. It was only eight years ago. It wasn't a long time ago and it's like two years ago or a six years ago.

00:10:32:12 - 00:10:49:03
Steve Macabee - Host
So it wasn't a long time ago in history. And like I say, we have to be constantly kind of learning, constantly developing all the time because the world changes. But also in terms of understanding, you know, that that's kind of evolving all the time, which builds on each other, isn't it? So yeah, no, thank you. I couldn't agree more.

00:10:49:03 - 00:10:54:09
Steve Macabee - Host
I think that. So what what kind of excites you most about your your work?

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Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
I think the best part of the role is getting out and about. And so, as you know, I came to the Somerset Partnership conference. It was a fabulous day. And what I particularly enjoyed about that day was the marketplace, because it meant I could walk around and people were showcasing their work. And there are many, many teams that make up the safeguarding Partnership.

00:11:18:06 - 00:11:58:07
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
I mean, absolutely. And so it was really it was really great to understand that that grassroots and how it all fits together. And and then a couple of weeks ago, I went to Stratford in East London. So it's a youth center, and that was really great as well, too. I went to meet a young person who helped us with our recent conference, but it was just great to go somewhere and actually see and understand the places where these people get together, how it all works and spend some time talking to young people.

00:11:58:13 - 00:12:01:21
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
And again, I think that was just really grounded.

00:12:01:23 - 00:12:09:06
Steve Macabee - Host
Yeah, I've got to say, because you had your conference, what was it, a week and a half or so ago now? You did. Yes. Busy, busy time. But look, really successful.

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Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
Yes. Yeah, we've had lots of excellent feedback, which is great. We can use our learning for the next one.

00:12:15:22 - 00:12:39:04
Steve Macabee - Host
Yeah. Excellent. Lovely. Thank you, Sally. Well, it's been great. Sort of sort of starting off, getting to know you a little bit. If it's okay with you, you can sort of with Dive International panel on the role of the panel yourselves. So we sort of pick up on that one sort of in terms of the national panel of people, I've never heard of it before, not aware of it, Could you just kind of explain what it is, what the role of it is?

00:12:39:06 - 00:13:19:20
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
Yeah, sure. So as you mentioned, it came out of 2017 legislation. It started in 2018 and there were ten of us on the panel with all from different professions, just like you would in a safeguarding partnership team. And so obviously I'm the nurse as a doctor, head teacher and ex-Chief Constable as a barrister and educational psychologist. So all different walks of life and so we all bring our own professional perspective, but also we comment on the full holistic care of the family.

00:13:19:20 - 00:14:01:01
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
And I suppose we meet fortnightly and the, the foundation of our work is around the same incident notifications that local authorities submit whenever a child has either died or being seriously harmed and abuse or neglect is suspected. And last year we have 482 of those notifications. And so we read as a panel, we split into two groups. So every two weeks, three or four people will read every single notification that comes through the door, because that is our data, that is our window on the system.

00:14:01:01 - 00:14:30:00
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
That's how we know what goes on. And so I suppose that describes our role in system oversight. We will and through the local safeguarding practice reviews, we pick out key themes of what safeguarding partnerships I'll find in challenge in. We also pick out key themes on what's not working within the system across England. So we then share that learning through a whole range of means.

00:14:30:05 - 00:15:03:17
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
We have our newsletter, we run webinars regularly. We all also all have a region and for me, my regions, the South west. Absolutely. And so this relationships as well with regions we give, try and give really helpful feedback on rapid reviews and local safeguarding child safeguarding practice reviews. But if there's something that actually would just be easier to pick up the phone or jump on teams and have a conversation with the partnership, we do that.

00:15:03:19 - 00:15:24:20
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
And so that's part of our we have this whole body of learning and we want to share that and say that it has impact across England. And our conference, as you mentioned, and last week was part of that. And sometimes we'll pick out key themes and that may warrant a national review and we'll perhaps come on to talk about those in a few moments.

00:15:24:22 - 00:15:57:00
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
And then we also try to be a system leader and support in safeguarding partnerships and to be able to take their leadership role, because actually leadership in a partnership is absolutely key to creating that culture across an integrated care system for effective safeguarding practice. So that's a lot of what we do. And so I shall leave it there and we might pick up some of the take reviews.

00:15:57:02 - 00:16:18:17
Steve Macabee - Host
Yeah, and I think it's kind of yeah, good overview. And again, just sort of picking up in terms if people aren't aware, obviously with with working together like our children back in 2018, there were the new partnership arrangements, but also the changes in terms of how we learn from when there's been serious safeguarding events taking place. Obviously previously, for those not aware it was there was serious case reviews.

00:16:18:19 - 00:16:44:19
Steve Macabee - Host
The shift back in 2018 to the rapid reviews and the local child safeguarding practice reviews or national Child safeguarding practice reviews, which was quite, I think, subtle but quite a fundamental shift really. I know certainly in my time of working in safeguarding it is there's been quite a shift. And like you said, I think the key parts around it is actually fundamentally how do we improve, how do we get things better?

00:16:44:22 - 00:17:03:13
Steve Macabee - Host
You know, it's acknowledging what took place, but it's about analysis always. Now that's what took place. So what are we going to do differently? And that is quite a shift, really, having that quite sharp focus on that. And the role of of the national panel is really kind of looking to support that shift, isn't it, and supporting that that learning culture as we go forward.

00:17:03:15 - 00:17:22:14
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
Yeah, absolutely. And you're quite right, I think set to this case reviews that used to be quite long and to take people quite a long time to read, whereas I've had a lot of narratives around the story where obviously, as you just said, the focus is on what is the learning and what are we going to do about it to make things better?

00:17:22:16 - 00:17:39:05
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
Absolutely. When the panel was set, so they used to spend the whole day reading cases, whereas we spent a proportion of the day now looking at cases. But we spend a lot more time thinking about the. So what? What? Yeah, absolutely needs to change.

00:17:39:07 - 00:17:49:03
Steve Macabee - Host
Yeah. No, brilliant. Thank you, Sally. So, so in terms of the work you do with the national panel, what are some of the, some of the sort of key objectives and priorities?

00:17:49:05 - 00:18:20:11
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
And so I think our main priority is, as I mentioned, the service, instant notifications. They are the foundation to everything else that we do. So we want to do that process well and to offer helpful feedback and partnerships and also looking at how we can support safeguarding partnerships to learn from each other. So there's going to be the Arts and Learning Support program set up shortly.

00:18:20:11 - 00:18:56:13
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
That's that's almost there. So that's the first thing. We have done some work on intra familial and child sexual abuse already. We've had a prelim injury report on that. And what we're now wanting to do is to build and expand on that so that it will become a national review and everybody can share from that. And I think the aim for that is looking at creating and supporting conditions for effective practice in managing intra familial child sexual abuse.

00:18:56:15 - 00:19:22:00
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
And this also a thematic looking at race, racism and ethnicity. So partly one of the focuses that we have when we look at the reviews is what is the daily life like for a child if you have that little five year old in that family, what would your day look and feel like? And really trying to understand that as well for the cultures?

00:19:22:00 - 00:19:50:01
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
Because we're often told that child safeguarding practice in England is centered on white families. The policy and the research. So really trying to broaden that out and think about what what are the differences for children from other cultures. And so there's something about the child's daily life, but also something about the professionals who are working with that family.

00:19:50:03 - 00:20:18:23
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
How does their knowledge and understanding of race and ethnicity influence their practice and also their decision making and how competent are people around working with families from other cultures? How comfortable do practitioners feel about challenging families around certain and child rearing practices that they have If they're not from that culture and they feel that they might not fully understand it?

00:20:19:00 - 00:20:50:23
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
And how can we develop skills in practitioners so that they're able to communicate more effectively with families from other ethnicities? So and then I suppose finally, very often what you get with race and culture are lots of other intersectional aspects of vulnerabilities, such as poverty. And so just thinking about what what else is going on for that family and how we most effectively support them.

00:20:51:03 - 00:21:20:03
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
So that's quite a big piece of work and that will be coming out well, it's starting now, so it could be ready next year and then the final piece of work that I'm involved in is we're just scoping out at the moment what a potential National Review would look like on the correct, because we know that neglect, it's the most common form of abuse that we see, that we don't always get referrals just for neglect.

00:21:20:07 - 00:21:42:18
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
But there may be a serious incident that's happened. And then when you get the rapid review, you can see that there's a backdrop of neglect and very often a 33% of the cases that we see are opened to children's social care and 66% of the cases that we see have been open to children social care in the past.

00:21:42:23 - 00:21:47:05
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
And very often neglect has been a feature.

00:21:47:07 - 00:22:10:19
Steve Macabee - Host
Yeah, I think you're right. I think we see that locally as well as that sort of common thread. I think quite often that is is is evident in nearly, I would say all all reviews that have taken place. So it may not be the most dominant feature, but it's certainly there is a common thread running through and I think you're right and it's something that as a as a partnership in Somerset, we're really keen to be looking at a fact.

00:22:10:19 - 00:22:39:09
Steve Macabee - Host
We've got a forum week taking place at the end of this month, last week, the last week of this month in June, focusing on on neglect and really sort of looking at sort of we're taking the theme of neglect from sort of childhood to adulthood to pre-birth to adulthood and neglect across the life span. So talking to midwifery, talking to two health visitors, we're going to be picking up around young carers as well.

00:22:39:11 - 00:23:01:08
Steve Macabee - Host
And that that kind of where that that line sits really about what's okay, to have an expectation that it's fine for a child to do or not. But obviously based on age and ability, but also where that line is between young, caring and neglect potentially and then going right through to adulthood as well. So it's something we're really keen to look at as a as a local partnership as well around that theme.

00:23:01:08 - 00:23:29:04
Steve Macabee - Host
And I think you're right, it is something that nationally we know is is a huge topic. And is there across a thread of so many. And you look at the number of children, child protection plans under the category of neglect, it is a huge issue. And again, I think one of the things we're keen to look at as a partnership is where do we identify, okay, this is willful neglect or subsequent neglect or where is this as a consequence of families just really struggling.

00:23:29:08 - 00:23:51:06
Steve Macabee - Host
And we mentioned the cost of living crisis early or not. She, you know, being able to differentiate that I think sometimes and put in the right support to support families, to parent effectively, isn't it. So it sounds difficult. And and I think just picking up on the previous point you made about ethnicity and cultural differences, as again, I know this was something that the national panel sort of highlighted a little while back, wasn't it?

00:23:51:06 - 00:24:14:04
Steve Macabee - Host
And I think from memory, I think the finding was that often it might have been indicated within a rapid review or child safeguarding practice review, but not really kind of got into depth in terms of actually like, say, what does that actually mean for the child? It is acknowledged it's there again, it's that. So what's networks actually mean for this child within this experience is that we need to focus on.

00:24:14:07 - 00:24:37:05
Steve Macabee - Host
So yeah, no thank you Sally. So only terms you mention a little bit already in terms of how the national panel kind of engages with key stakeholders across the country, but just want you to tell us a little bit more about that in terms of kind of engaging with sort of local government government agencies, professionals working in child protection across the partnership and and beyond really.

00:24:37:07 - 00:25:10:05
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
Yeah. So I've probably covered of how we work with local agencies through the Safeguarding Partnership. So that would be through the regional relationships that we have, the feedback letters that we send back and then we run our program of regional roundtables as well in the autumn, which for me last year when I first started and that was a fabulous way to get around England very quickly, but to hear here we present some of our findings.

00:25:10:05 - 00:25:43:03
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
So it's a learning opportunity, but it's always great to hear from the safeguarding Partnerships live around what's happening for them. So a lot of engagement that way. In terms of government agencies, we are hosted by the Department for Education, so that is where we sit because that's where child protection sits in government. So we have a close working relationship with the DSA, but also with the Department of Health and Social Care and the Home Office representing health and the police as well.

00:25:43:05 - 00:26:18:18
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
And I think our relationship with government agencies is two way. So, for example, I was part of the group that did the National Review into safeguarding children with disabilities and complex health needs in residential settings. And so when we're getting to recommendation stage, we engage with the department to get their view on the direction that we're going in, as we do with the Department of Health and Social Care and the Home Office as well, but also when they're doing pieces of work.

00:26:18:18 - 00:26:44:22
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
So the work that's going on at the moment is around the child protection and standards. The work coming out of the care review has already started. And thinking about the pathfinders that are and will be set up very shortly to test out different models of working and thinking about those multi-agency child protection units and also the rewrite of working together.

00:26:44:22 - 00:27:32:13
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
Actually, there's a massive amount of work that's going on in these government departments, and so they also use us as a sounding board as to what might work or any gaps that they've missed. And then in terms of professional groups, we all tend to take the key messages to our own professions. And one of the objectives when I joined the panel and did my pre-interview reading was to get the national panel a better known because I'm going to be really honest, probably at months ago I didn't know about the national panel, so I've been doing some work with nursing networks, in particular school nurses.

00:27:32:15 - 00:28:16:05
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
I'm meeting with them soon to do webinars with the Institute of Health visiting, have a really close relationship with them. Peter side, both of them. He is now a doctor. He has relationships with the RC PCH. We meet regularly with the court system. We've got our head teacher. She is taking messages back to schools. So we do all of that through our own networks just to make sure that that consistent message not only gets across the government and at partnership level, but actually is meeting frontline practitioners.

00:28:16:05 - 00:28:22:21
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
And we have a lot of frontline practitioners at the conference last week, which was fabulous.

00:28:22:23 - 00:28:38:23
Steve Macabee - Host
So yeah, and I think you're right, it's again a focus for us as a, as a local partnership is, you know, it's great doing all this work, it's great making all these improvements. And actually the communication is key, isn't it? We've got to get those messages out. We've got to engage with frontline practitioners, with managers, and we've got to make that change.

00:28:38:23 - 00:28:58:21
Steve Macabee - Host
And right the way across the system of my health in doing isolation. So no thank you. And you mentioned just then about the National Review that's recently taking place in relation to child with disabilities. I think that's published in April this year, wasn't it? So just want if you could could be able to share with us some of the sort of key findings and the messages from that.

00:28:58:23 - 00:29:30:19
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
Yeah, sure. So and that started off because we received from the Safeguarding Partnership notification that there were 108 children with disabilities and complex health needs who had been abused in three residential settings in the same locality around a residential school. And that was all types of abuse. And there is a criminal investigation which is still live, so we can't share too many details around that.

00:29:30:19 - 00:30:02:23
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
But actually it was a really good example of how you can still do this work even when there's a life police investigation going on. If you agree the parameters of that with the police before you start. So the main findings of that were these children. Their voices weren't heard, They were non-verbal. They were living many miles away from home and actually their distress was being communicated through their behavior there, which exacerbated the situation, actually, because they were then punished for that behavior.

00:30:03:00 - 00:30:45:15
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
So just thinking about advocacy and training for professionals on hearing the voices of non-verbal children, and it was a very closed culture. They had their own professionals. There wasn't anybody else going in. It happened during COVID as well. So parents weren't even going into this place. So it through that whole issue of having a healthy culture in a in a setting, in a partnership and nationally picked up a lot of work force issues around having the right people with the right values, working with these children.

00:30:45:15 - 00:31:11:02
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
It's hard work and low pay, but making sure that that workforce is valued and respected and gets the training and development that they need to be able to do their job. And what it did show was that that quality assurance that should have protected these children, it failed at every every slide. So the provider's own quality assurance processes weren't there.

00:31:11:04 - 00:31:48:13
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
And 68 of those children were actually part funded by health. But there was some health oversight of what was happening in those settings and they Regulation 44 was at the IRS. So those roles weren't working effectively and they independ and Visitor was somebody who had been there for many years and was very known to the facility. Again, building on the closed culture aspect of that and, and Ofsted also had rated this establishment as good.

00:31:48:15 - 00:32:25:24
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
The surprising thing for me is a lot of these children with complex health needs, they they have complex health needs, which means that they need quite a degree of clinical care, which in an ordinary family home would be delivered by parents. But there nevertheless clinical skills and and the skills see weren't going in to this establishment to have a look at medication administration recording of restraints and overseeing clinical procedures that were happening to the children.

00:32:26:01 - 00:32:53:02
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
And that's because only 14 residential schools in England were registered with the CQ. See So we did some work with Ofsted and CE QC and then now they've got a memorandum of understanding in place already which was preexisting. So they're working on that now to do joint inspections. And then I think the other thing very briefly was around commissioning for a lot of these children.

00:32:53:04 - 00:33:18:22
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
They were having short break care at home when they were small children. And then as they grow and get older and it becomes more difficult for a family to manage them, the only option is for them to go into residential care. So we would like to see more placements for these children. Commissioned, but also a broader range of placements so that we can support children to stay at home and where they're protected by the families.

00:33:18:24 - 00:33:42:17
Steve Macabee - Host
Yeah, said I don't know. That's something that came out and you mentioned the care review earlier. Ofsted sort of came out very strongly in terms of commissioning of, of residential support for children, young people as well. So yeah, be interesting to see how that develops over, over time really. And I thank you for sharing that. And I think again, one of the one of the the really key points you pulled out from that is around that that safe culture isn't there or or the culture of that organization.

00:33:42:17 - 00:34:07:19
Steve Macabee - Host
I know that certainly came out in the Mitchell report following the murders of Hollie and Jessica. It certainly came out within the independent inquiry into child sexual abuse published last year of that of that culture which which wasn't robust, which wasn't focused on safeguarding and that being one of the most important things to make sure you've got that culture and that you you grow that culture and you foster that culture to keep it really robust.

00:34:07:19 - 00:34:38:07
Steve Macabee - Host
And it's when that starts to go, that's where we've got the other concerns that start coming out, isn't it? So yeah, thank you, Sally. And in terms of it's sort of going forward in terms of kind of organizations safeguarding children, do you see sort of common sort of challenges or organizations as challenges or barriers for organizations that they face and in relation to kind of implementing effective safeguarding measures which union people are, they're kind of common themes that come up.

00:34:38:09 - 00:35:12:19
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
But yeah, there are very common themes, and some of it relates to escalation processes within organizations and so a family may be known to an agency, things are escalating. The agency may be trying to manage that, working in a silo rather than pulling in other agencies. We do see reviews as well, particularly where families move across geographical areas that handover and follow up and tracking children.

00:35:12:21 - 00:35:43:12
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
And you mentioned culture and having a culture where people feel able to speak up and challenge them in a respectful way. I'd say Now agree with that decision or can we go back and revisit that and and and I think I mentioned earlier about 33% of children are known to children's social care, 66%, and have been in the past.

00:35:43:14 - 00:36:15:06
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
So that would suggest to me that the answer does lie in effective multi-agency working. And that's really hard, isn't it? When we all speak different languages, we have different escalation processes. So I think that that is a challenge, particularly when we've got workforce pressures, everybody's got work or shifts. So spending that time developing that relationship so that you can pick up the phone when something happens and you know, somebody will probably get squeezed just because of everything else.

00:36:15:06 - 00:36:17:19
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
And that's know, I agree.

00:36:17:19 - 00:36:41:23
Steve Macabee - Host
And I think I think you're right. You know, we need to acknowledge there are pressures on services across the board. You know, we know nationally we got we've got shortages in staffing, in midwifery, in health, visiting in schools, in social work. You know, we know it's across the board. And personally speaking, I think there's there's a risk with that sometimes where you mention silo working people become more siloed working because they're under the pressure there.

00:36:41:23 - 00:37:07:09
Steve Macabee - Host
But I always try and give the message actually, probably now more than ever is it's more important to work in partnership and come together and support each other in that place because it is difficult and everyone is facing these challenges. But actually if we can work together and share that load and I say develop those professional working relationships, that respect between agencies actually becomes much more effective rather than kind of everyone going off into one corner and saying, okay, we need to focus on this at the moment.

00:37:07:09 - 00:37:29:08
Steve Macabee - Host
And and I understand that. I do understand that fragrances, but like I say, I think it's it's a risk particularly when when pressures are really stretched. So yeah yeah yeah and I think it's so I want to I want to bring it back for a moment if we can. You mentioned about understanding children's lived experiences and obviously coming with that is gaining the voice of children and young people.

00:37:29:10 - 00:37:45:18
Steve Macabee - Host
And I've seen the work that the national panel does focusing on on children just being sort of curious to to kind of ask about how the National Empowerment Panel kind of ensures that the voices of children, young people are kind of very present in the work that you do.

00:37:45:20 - 00:38:16:24
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
Okay. So I suppose, as I mentioned several times, that the incident notifications are the foundation. What we do and one of the criteria that we have, we quality assure every local safeguarding practice review that we receive and one of the indicators on that a document is around is the daily life of the child. Understood. And we some we see some absolutely fantastic examples of that.

00:38:17:01 - 00:38:42:23
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
And I think it's important just to note the difference between saying, oh, Billy went missing times. He was arrested by the police. So you can either get a list of of what Billy has done or you can say when Billy was five, he told his teacher he didn't have anything to eat. He hadn't gotten any friends. His friends wouldn't sit next to him because his clothes were dirty.

00:38:43:00 - 00:39:17:11
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
He didn't fit in. So that there's a very subtle difference, isn't there, between the list of things that have happened to Billy and actually some quite you can tell when you're reading it, whether you get in the daily life of the child because you get that feeling. So I think that's really important to pick up through. That means we have had discussions since the conference actually around how we make sure that the voice of the child filters through in our national reviews is quite difficult.

00:39:17:17 - 00:39:44:09
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
And to have a young person sitting on a team who's doing something because and the work can be quite distressing and trigger it and we wouldn't want to have a tokenistic youth panel. So we just need to think about how we do that effectively. We had we did have young people throughout the conference. It worked really well and we had them at several times during the day.

00:39:44:09 - 00:40:04:15
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
And actually they brought what we do to life and I think it made the sessions more meaningful for the people that were there. So it's something that we want to build on that success from the conference. But also just thinking about how you do that sensitively given the subject material that we're discussing.

00:40:04:17 - 00:40:24:17
Steve Macabee - Host
Yeah, absolutely. And it is difficult, like you say, I think, you know, youth panels, these forums can be can be so, so key. But like I say, you've got to support them to be able to do that effectively. And I say it's not the the work that you do. It's not easy work. It's it's not nice matter is it's so, so important we do that.

00:40:24:17 - 00:40:41:19
Steve Macabee - Host
So okay that's really interesting to hear. We could of see how that sort of pans out over time for Pat thank you. And what would you say the sort of some of the for you personally it was sort of some of the key lessons of the some of the key insights you've gained from from your involvement with the panel.

00:40:41:21 - 00:40:54:01
Steve Macabee - Host
HOST You've had a long, long career, but it's always interesting kind of taking a bit of a shift sometimes into kind of different roles and so learning new things. What are some of the things that you've picked out?

00:40:54:03 - 00:41:20:07
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
I think hindsight is a wonderful thing when you read in a safeguarding practice review. You know, it's very easy, isn't it, when you see the old bit now and you can see what's been coming in for years and though the people may have missed. So we just need to bear that in mind. But I think it is the importance of identifying those things that will make a difference.

00:41:20:10 - 00:41:50:23
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
Yeah, we mentioned earlier about the difference between the same case review and I know CPR and it is the analysis and actually the actions that come out of that analysis now going to make a difference because if we don't make a difference, there's no point any of us doing what we're doing. And once you've got those actions right, it's around how you embed so that they make that difference and how you track them.

00:41:51:00 - 00:42:17:15
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
And we have seen some safeguarding partnerships are used in their independent scrutiny. Is to look at governance processes. Yeah, because that and it sounds a bit dry and boring, but actually that is what is going to turn the tide, finding that golden nuggets of learning and acting upon them and vetting them and tracking to make sure that that has been sustained.

00:42:17:17 - 00:42:39:16
Steve Macabee - Host
Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, and just going back to hindsight for a second, I'm in two minds about hindsight, to be honest. It's a wonderful thing. And it's it's a terrible thing sometimes. But I think you're right. And I think, again, going back to serious case review, sometimes it was that was a real risk that was highlighted. And then sometimes you can look at circumstance things in hindsight and think, well, looking back on it now, that was really obvious.

00:42:39:16 - 00:43:02:10
Steve Macabee - Host
Why did nobody pick that up? Why they say that? But actually there's a real risk in that, isn't it? And I know as a local partnership, we're always thinking about, okay, what did this person know at this point in time? Exactly. And the actions they took, What was that? What was that based on? Because I think there is a risk, like you say, we kind of look to look at it retrospectively with all of the information to hand and you think, well, why?

00:43:02:11 - 00:43:12:11
Steve Macabee - Host
You know, this is this is ridiculous. Why wasn't this thing wasn't this picked up? But I think there's a real risk. And what you say that actually we we place it in context there the way we do.

00:43:12:13 - 00:43:13:24
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
Yeah.

00:43:14:01 - 00:43:34:13
Steve Macabee - Host
Brilliant. Thank you, Sally. Well, I think if we if we can just start to wrap things up a little bit, I think a couple of couple of things I'll be really curious about. And one is we've talked about when safeguarding is not effective, We've we've talked about sort of needing to make improvements, which of course we we always need to do all the time.

00:43:34:15 - 00:43:51:00
Steve Macabee - Host
But I'm just thinking in terms of the importance of learning from good practice. And I'm just wondering as a as a national panel, I hope you sort of see good practice coming in as well. Is there anything you have to share with us in terms of kind of anything you see nationally? We saw actually, you know what, that's that's really good practice.

00:43:51:00 - 00:43:53:02
Steve Macabee - Host
That's really effective.

00:43:53:04 - 00:44:18:20
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
Yeah, sure. I mean, like you say, you see individual practitioners that where they have done a stand in practice and where we do see that we do include in the feedback, that's a great, you know, please could you pass on our thanks to whoever it is? So there's something around individual excellence in practice and then there's something I suppose, around what partnerships are doing.

00:44:18:22 - 00:44:51:09
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
And sometimes we get feedback that different members of the Safeguarding Partnership haven't agreed on an action that they should take in response to an incident. And so some partnerships have developed a process for how they handle those differences of opinion and built that into their governance system. So that's an area of good practice. And then very often what you see in rapid reviews is that there's been a lack of process.

00:44:51:09 - 00:45:23:23
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
Something has been rumbling on for quite a long time and there are some partnerships who have identified that and then done a deep dive into why whatever is happening within that case isn't moving forward and then taking proactive steps at that point to remove those blockages. And so I think there's there's something about learning from reviews, but there's something about everyday learning as well just in in strategy meetings and review meetings.

00:45:24:00 - 00:46:17:00
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
And very often we see, particularly in criminal exploitation or knife crime, where a child has murdered another child, you can see that that child is as well as being a perpetrator. They're also a victim only. And we've one partnership who's developed a toolkit for not use in victim blaming language. So that was quite innovative. Innovative. We see some fabulous learning briefings and bite sized and seven minute briefings with some great graphics and yes, some great work going on there because and I think that's all really important because the rapid review embedded in I've learned in which I mentioned earlier, that most successful where partnerships are proactive around they're learning.

00:46:17:02 - 00:46:32:13
Steve Macabee - Host
Now I think in let's say is about getting these messages out and the world has changed. The world is evolving. We use technology in different ways these days. And now a large part of what I do is actually how do we best get these messages out? How do we best make these changes? So yeah, I think being creative, being flexible with that.

00:46:32:13 - 00:46:59:01
Steve Macabee - Host
So no, brilliant. Thank you, Sally. And so I guess one one last thing from me, if that's okay. Again, just sort of on a slight personal note in terms of your kind of experience, but for anybody listening to this today, what would be the one kind of takeaway you'd want to give people from today's kind of podcast or from your experience really in relation to safeguarding children?

00:46:59:03 - 00:47:37:23
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
I think to keep listening to what children are telling you and keep that curiosity. If you hear something that sounds a bit strange or to provoke your curiosity that you follow following up, because that is one of the key, key things that we see that goes wrong in safeguarding practice. A throwaway comment, an observation by a health visitor when they go into a home and something that a teacher has noticed and that they they don't think about that until further down the line when something has happened.

00:47:37:23 - 00:47:45:04
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
So and that is really heartlessness. We've mentioned the pressures, but I think just keep that curiosity alive.

00:47:45:06 - 00:48:07:14
Steve Macabee - Host
Really. Sally, thank you so much for your time today. I really, really appreciate it. And it's been fantastic having your input into the discussion today and it's great to get that national perspective as well. And yeah, I think just on behalf of myself and and on behalf of the Somerset City Cognition Partnership, which is what it's kind of thank you for, for the work that you do and all the support that you put in locally and nationally as well.

00:48:07:14 - 00:48:09:19
Steve Macabee - Host
So thank so much for joining us.

00:48:09:21 - 00:48:16:02
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
Thank you to the partnership for all the amazing work that the partnership is doing as well.

00:48:16:08 - 00:49:31:19
Steve Macabee - Host
Thank you, Sally. So, so thank you much. So Sally Sara OBE and national member of the National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel, thank you very much. And we look forward to speaking to you again at some point. Yeah, Thanks, Steve. Thanks. I'll take a.

00:49:31:21 - 00:49:32:12
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel


00:49:32:12 - 00:49:35:07
Sally Shearer - National Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel
Together to help keep children safe.